Deang Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Yes, yes, I know -- a frightening proposition. Only a complete idiot like myself would even consider doing it. I rolled the 27" Mitsu in front of the rack tonight and stuck in the S-video cord. Debbie and Ian are still in the hospital and the kids wanted to do some movies, and I really didn't feel like sitting in the basement with the 32" screen and 2" speakers. No Scott, no Cornwalls, eh. We started with 'Reign of Fire' (not a bad flick really). I jacked the volume control to about where I figured the KR300BXLS' would be spouting brimstone -- and hit the chair. The kids were on the floor, and we were just kind of kicked back. Well, we were kicked back until the initial action scenes kicked in. I KNOW there wasn't much bass to speak of below 35Hz -- but whole damn room was shaking. Transients were simply unbelievable, and dialog was coming straight out of the screen. We turned it down a little after about a 1/2 an hour, and my 13 year old said: "Dad, I usually can't tell when you get different stuff -- but I really don't think you should ever sell these. No sh!t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Sounds good. Sometime I'd like to bring the HT system out of the dark ages of ss, but havn't figured out the logistics. Does front and rear balance work out with different speakers and amps? What are you using for surround decoder and preamp? leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 You have seen my 6SN7 page, right? Well, that loon that sent me over two dozen pairs of NOS 6SN7 and 5692 actually has four or five SET amps, two of which are running his HT!!! One is the Moth 2A3 and the other a Wavelength Audio DUETTO 300b. He has several Jadis amps that are now in the closet as he cant listen to ANY push pull of any type. HE WAS running KR2A3 in the MOTH for his main HT system, and this at a lowly 4.5w or so! OF course, he has horns (but not Klipsch - Galante Buckinghams). kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 I've thought about this as well. The real issue with this approach is that virtually all of the sound processors (AC-3, DTS, etc.) are solid state based ... and the balance function (level of speaker output to your sitting position) is a function of pre-amp output. This is all firmware driven. When I hooked up my tube amps to the "pre-amp out" jacks, I noticed no substantial difference to when running off the five internal amps in the Denon. It all sounded SS due to the front-end solid state processing. In this 2-channel forum, we've spent a lot of time discussing the importance of getting ALL solid state out of the chain ... e.g., Jean-Francois's tube rectification on his Pantheon gear. I just don't see how we can really do it in the HT area since it's basically processing silicon attached to amps ... Surprisingly, a good HT receiver sounds fabulous for what it's designed to do ... I would never consider stacking up my HT rig to my 2-channel system; there's no comparison for pure listening. But for bomb blasts, circling helicopters, even DTS-based concerts, HT is about as good as it gets. It's about entertainment with popcorn, microwave ovens going in the kitchen, beers opening ... you get the idea. That stuff doesn't happen in my 2-channel room Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale W Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 I see from my last issue of audio ? (can't remember ) that MANLEY has introduced its first HT tube amp called the "snapper" they are suppose to be taking a aggresive stance in the HT market. although this amp falls short of the THX power rating , they claim it has plenty of headroom and more than enough balls to keep up. I think it's in the 100w range, i'll have to dig up the issue tonight and get some more secifics. nice to see a tube amp company head towards a market dominated by ss gear . Not to mention the head cheese at manley is a " WOMAN " hats off to her and her effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Kelly, 6SN7 page? no. Where is it? Chris, My cd player is all digital ss w/ op-amp s&h, filter and output drive. It sounds a lot better through the Tripath and tube amps than the previous NAD .. a lot better. Amps are a big source of distortion with Klipsch speakers because the speaker voltages are so small. At those small voltages, transistor amps are severely challenged. Meanwhile, line level stuff in the surround decoders can be optimized for max signal to noise. Often, the voltages present at the output stage of my cd player are bigger than what's being fed to the speakers. Also, your Dennon may be better behaved than my NAD. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Leo, interesting stuff. I went to the tripath website and it looks like a very interesting technology. I think I'll follow the links out of there and see where they're engaging in the audio space. Did you find that the level of distortion from your NAD was audible? I would be all for a separates approach where clean amplification would be used ... but I just hadn't seen the offering yet. The Denon sounds very clean to me ... Conversely, though, even when tracking at 95 db listening levels, the volume is rarely past 10:00 ... (-10 on the display). Then again, maybe my hearing is just gonzo If you're ever out this way (Lancaster), drop in and let's give it a listen. Would love to hear yours as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 6, 2003 Author Share Posted January 6, 2003 'HT' to me -- is simply watching a DVD. Hell, it could be mono with one speaker -- but if I'm watching a movie, it's 'HT'! Nope, my 'HT' is two SET monoblocks and a pair of lowly RF-7's. No sub, no center channel, no rears, no side rears, no processor, and no headache. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Chris, The NADs were terrible (I had a 3130 and a larger 60 Watt version w/ meters). I couldn't figure out for years why such nice speakers (the Fortes) would sound so bad. Meanwhile, as an EE I was finding all kinds of low level noise in transistor amp and op-amp signals. Then one day, literally as I drove to work, I put the two together. To verify it I used two voltage divider schemes on the 3130. 1) I used resistors to make a 10/1 divider (keeping an 8 Ohm load on the amp). The result was smooth and the image suddenly happened. 2) Then I used a 10:1 audio transformer with an additional 8 Ohm load on the amp .. same results. Since then I've been here on this forum passing along the 1 story about distortion and finding out how others deal with the problem. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 I would have to agree for multi channel HT a tube amp is a waste of electicity. My $600 Sony DD and DTS reciever is just awesome sounding and spending anymore is just silly !! Its just movies Crash, Boom Bang. Heck most of the time I listen with only 2 speakers anyway but a action DVD is awesome in DTS of DD. Now music with that same reciever is horrible !! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 7, 2003 Author Share Posted January 7, 2003 Movies also have music, and dialog during action sequences. How many times have you lost dialoge during the exposions and car crashes? The center channel started out as primarily dialoge, and then they started throwing all kinds of stuff through it. Tubes do for HT what they do for music -- articulate! Throw a DVD in through your Scott and Scalas -- and take cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjohnsonhp Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 I find myself more critical of my 2-channel music than of my DVD movie sound. The action movies sound great with my simple Outlaw 1050's 60watts blasted through the Cornwall mains and Heresy Surrounds. Even the music such as the opera singing on "5th Element" sounds good although this is where having a Heritage center helps over my old C7. I'm currently testing a Heresy center and trying to complete the acquisition of an Academy for comparison. I'll be trying my Dynaco ST70 connected to the DTS pre/pro but I want to focus my funds on improving 2-channel music more than movie sound (other than adding a chest collapsing SVS Ultra). A better TT System and pre-amp for 2-channel is perceived to be a more enjoyable investment than more tube amps for my HT. Of course eventually I may get to the point where I would ask if multiple tube amps connected to a pre/pro would sound better than a sub $2k SS multi-channel amp (ie the Outlaw 770 or even multiple Outlaw 200 SS stackable monoblocks). I guess I would ask if there is enough power in moderate priced tube gear to handle the spikes of bombs, cannons, lightning, etc. Of course the space savings of one 7-channel amp box is compelling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invidiosulus Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Movies do have music, but like all the sound on DVD's(even DTS) it is a greatly compressed audio format much like an MP3, and we know how those sound. Peace, Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Dean, I'm with you on this one. About 6 months ago I called Cary Audio to speak with Kirk about replacing the headphone switch on my amp. Kirk was not there but Dennis Had took the call and we spoke for 30-40 minutes. I did ask him about tube amps for HT. He said there was talk about a 3 channel version of their "Rocket" series for that purpose. He seemed to think it would work well. In fact, Steve Deckert (Decware) told me that more than a few of his customers were using his amps in HT setups with great results. Give me 30-40 grand, and I'd put together a tubes and horns HT system that would not only sound good, but look very, very cool too! Talk about going too far... Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornwaller Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Kjohnsonhp and deang, I have been thinking about this since 1992 but have only now decided to do something about it. I have been experimenting and have found that there is no substitue for the klipsch sound and HT. You do not need a dedicated center channel if the front mains or in Dean's case mains only have enough guts to play what they need to. For you KJHP, you don't need a center if you have a dsp with phantom center. And lastly, you will see some replys to my post re: suggestions on a tube amp for a SS preamp; that may shed more light on the hybrid ss/tube systems--whether HT or 2 channel. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it! Cornwaller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Ah, yes, I can see it now... Klipschified Skipper Deang, tubing down a river of sound, one hand on the remote/tiller and the other on a life support box of back-up KR300BXLS and a well-worn bible opened up to the "make a joyful noise" page. =HornEd PS: Way to go, deang dad, at least you're bringing the little "g's" along a path that leads beyond the 2" speakers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Why not SETs and horn speakers for HT. Afterall that's what used to be in actual theaters at one time; Western Electric, RCA and Lansing horn speakers powered by Western Electric 300B and RCA 2A3 amplifiers. It was the fanatic Japanese disciples of an old WE single ended amp that kicked off this SET revival in the first place. It appears that some people here don't want to listen to amps they like because they don't approve of the electronics ahead of the amps. Such people evidently are then happier listening to amps they don't like.??!!?? Now it doesn't matter to me a pinch of owl dung (as Abel Streight said about John Pope) what you fellas do but I say take your advantages where you can. Tubes still sound like tubes with SS in front of them, for what that's worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornwaller Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 TB, " Tubes still sound like tubes with SS in front of them, for what that's worth" That's what I thought! Do tubes still soud like tubes with SS behind them? Cornwaller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Cornwaller---Yes. IME any piece of gear with a strong sonic signature will retain that signature if used with other gear that's reasonabley transparent. This is true whether the gear is tube OR SS. I don't think it pays to get dogmatic about this stuff. I use a Denon HT receiver and use the pre-amp outs to feed a DOD active crossover, I then power my compression drivers above 500hz with tube amps. I use them because they sound so good. Some tube purists would say that because I have several SS devices in front I won't get the advantages of these tube amps. That's horsesh*t. Maybe such purists think I should use SS amps I don't like as much. Then I would be in a audiophile paradox, getting better sound because I'm getting worse sound. ??!!?? No sh*t, some of these dogmatic audio dildos really think that way. Use what YOU like Cornwaller and tell anybody that doesn't like it to go to the Devil. www.chicagohornspeakerclub.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Jesus, Tom...that last post was off the deep end... and I am not talking the private pool 8ft option but the full 12 ft deep end of the City pool. Where's is Friday when you need it? kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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