jimmyzdc Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Hello everyone, I have have a room that is approx. 20x25 I was thinking about going with a 7.2 system. All the speakers would be RF7s, RC7 for the center, and then 2 RSW12 for the subs. What do you guys think about this system? Is this overkill? Would it be better to have RF7s for the front and maybe RF5 or RF3s for the rest? Please help! I need to make a decision by next week! Thanks Jimmyzdc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasN00b Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 overkill? say whaaaaat? whats this overkill you speak of... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen328 Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Im with Jasnoob. This concept of overkill is new to me. Rf-7 all around an an RC-7 for center would rock. If you can afford it. If you are really into movies (and it sounds like you are) you might want to wait for the Klipsch THX certified system to come out. It looks pretty sweet. Always a possibility. If you do decide to go reference series just remember that adding a subwoofer only increases total output by an average 3 db. SO you may be better off with a RSW-15, or hell how about 2 RSW-15s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Overkill? ...does not compute... For sure, that would be a great rig, but personally, I'd go for RS7's in the back, to get that nice, surround envelopment thing. RF7's in front, RC7 center, RS7's surround, and two RSW15 subs to rattle yer monkey bone...that'd about do it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyzdc Posted January 13, 2003 Author Share Posted January 13, 2003 Unfortunatly, Im not sure if I can get the THX system. I have to make this purchase by the end of the month. If the THX system is availiable then its a possibility. ANybody know when its availiable or any of the specs on it? What it consists of and anything else. Thanks. Mmmmmm I cant wait for my theater.heheh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjohnsonhp Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 The new THX Ultra2 system sure would be worth checking out. 5.2 system is $8k. Matching three front speakers on stands (great for a screen/plasma above center) with 5.25" woofers and 6"x10" horn tweeter. 80Hz-20KHz. Subs have 12" driver rated down to 20Hz w/1k Watt external amp. Surrounds have two woofers and two horns angled for diffuse sound. My perception is that you need to consider the fit for your room. For movies I prefer the Dolby recommended placement (and theater placement) of surrounds slightly above the listener and a more diffuse sound than tower speakers on the floor (some are more creative with the mounting to address this issue). I also like three identical speakers across the front at the same height with the screen above which is a very attractive feature of the new ULTA system if you have a screen/panel and not a RPTV. If not the THX Ulra2 then I perceive the previous recommendation which is consistent with the Klipsch recommended system would be a better fit and value. I don't disagree with the desire for all matching speakers, but if you have a RC7 for center front do you really need two RF7's for the rear center (or were you proposing an RC7 for rear, too)? The RC7 would be the weak link in the initial proposal and it's the primary sound producer. I think some like the RF7 for center front but then you have a nonstandard mounting. All RF7's for surround....maybe not overkill, but I question if it is price/performance optimized...especially given the placement challenges. There are lot's of other costs (electronics, HDTV, PVR, DVD player, etc. so allocation of funding is an issue for me). Just my perspective on limited info. Please post pictures of your system when you get it. All the options would be awesome! Enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prodj101 Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 "but personally, I'd go for RS7's in the back, to get that nice, surround envelopment thing. " full range surrounds will always work better than bipolar surrounds. most people that have had both will tell you this. I have full range surrounds myself, and love it. as for your worry of overkill, there is not such thing with audio. no matter what you buy, it will have its deficiencies just like anything else. one problem with the system you are talkiung about is the subwoofers. if you are going for something for movies, dual SVS CS ultra's would work much better than dual RSW-12's. if you could, it would be better to go dual RSW-15's. if I had the room, I would get a second one. As to why you can only wait a month, I'm guessing your writing it off on your taxes or something right? If possible it would be nice to wait until the thx system comes out, since it is optimized more for movies which is what your aiming for right? Also, what are yourp lans for a receiver and dvd player? I would go rotel seperates if possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Your on the right track Jimmyzdc BUT... building a 6.1 system (discrete channels) with two rear effects speakers and two subwoofers that fails to put an adequate speaker in the front center falls way short of ideal. Take it from someone who has been there... 6.1 with a "manufacturer matched" center channel... the front center channel is the MAIN channel for HT... just as the Right & Left front channels are the main channels for stereo or mulit-channel music. Upwards of 75% of the TOTAL SOUND recorded on a DVD movie is directed through the center channel to anchor the sound to the screen. There is no way that a center speaker that has less components and volume less than your right and left front speakers can be as close a timbre match as a center speaker of the same kind. Won't fit your space... consider making a new motorboard to replace one in an RF-7... just put the horn in the center and flank it with the woofers... all the existing wires and ports remain stock. But the sound and timbre matching will knock the socks off of anyone entering your HT area. And your right to opt for at least two RSW-15's... for even with two you will fall short of the Dolby reference level for professional theaters. Some of us who have rigs that meet or exceed that standard (121.5 dB at 20 Hz) will attest that it's the second greatest thing that can happen to your HT environment. Of course, the first must remain a front center (main) speaker that equals your right and left mains! Having seven RF-7's (including a modified RF-7 center) provides as close to an ideal HT environment that can be achieved in the Klipsch Reference line. The trend, IMHO, of modern sound mixers is to take full advantage of the five or six full range channels plus low bass (5.1 or 6.1) that are available to them. Thus, they can make a sound appear from any point in your listening area... and make appropriate ambient sound by sending those sounds to multiple channels. Fortunately, the majority of mixers do not seem to be stuck in the THX tunnel-hearing syndrome of dipole side/surrounds. Your choice of RF-7 surrounds assure that there is not likely going to be a "dopler shift effect" as sounds pass from rear effects, through the side surrounds, and end up in the front array. Your choice is a vote for precision sound dynamics... rather than sticking your ears in a bowl of dipole mush! By the way, my recent experiments show that by using the technique of converting main tower speakers to horizontal speakers works not only for the front center but the side/surrounds and rear effects speakers as well! By having the speakers in a horizontal attitude, the effective dispersion angle of the woofers is increased... which has the effect of broadening the sweet spot. I am in the process of building a larger HT in a free standing theater building at my favorite mountain retreat and desired to entertain as many guests as possible within the Fibonacci Number constraints of the new construction. The main advantage of having two speakers in the rear effects positions (obviously, those two speakers are fed from a single rear effects channel making the 7.1 label somewhat of a misnomer... in a similar fashion there is only one .1 subwoofer channel no matter how many subwoofers you put in the room). One of the advantages you will receive in your (hopefully) all RF-7 approach is that newer receivers turn 5.1 origianls into 6.1 matrixed versions that will really light up your HT enjoyment. If your willing to spend the money and create the space for an optimized Reference HT... don't stop short of having the kind of center channel such commitment deserves. Overkill... "***etaboudit!" ...once you get there you will never want to return to wimpy centers and sound spraying surounds again! =HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 overkill: transitive verb, 1957 "to obliterate (a target) with more nuclear force than required" Merriam Webster Collegiate Dictionary 2001 And believe it or not, that's the only definition of overkill in there! Overkill? Doesn't sound like it applies to anything Klipsch does. Go for it man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjohnsonhp Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Nice posts...I look forward to seeing pics of this new system using HornEd's advice in placement... wow! AMERICAN HERITAGE: Overkill: Nuclear destructive capacity exceeding the amount needed to destroy and enemy. 2. Any greatly excessive action or response: government overkill in dealing with dissent 3. Excessive killing. I interpreted the word in this context to mean additional technology without any notable benefit--clearly rarely the case in audio. As a new price conscience consumer I like to find the "knee of the price/performance curve" or maybe a spot on a hyperbolic curve where the extra cost starts to provide notably less return. I'm just not sure how to plot electronics and speakers out in such a manner and I guess once you get started there's the continued hunt for improvement....I hear the term "that last 5%" followed by selection of $8k cables or some other item that sounds like overrr....no...extension of the plot on the price axis. I think the excellent experimentation and pushing the extremes of HT beyond the initial design of Klipsch is what makes this board so wonderful. I loved HornEd's post. * I think getting a full range matching center most critical as he states...keeping the sound from appearing to high compared to the sides is what I'm working on with my Heresy on top of my RPTV and sitting only 8' from the screen. * Getting the surrounds optimized would be next for me. I've been skeptical about needing big speakers for surround but when I replaced my Boston Acoustic A60's with Heresys there was a big improvement and indeed there is more and more full range sound coming from the effects than in older movies....can it be that I'll want more bigger horns? * I like the idea of horizontal RF7's for sides and I seem to like them above ear level....so far I haven't found full range speakers facing each other on the floor and closer than my fronts with my ears inbetween to be ideal. Horizontal and 2-3 feet higher seems to be a great idea. * I certainly was impressed with the sound range from the standard RF7/RS7/RC7 so I'd love to hear all RF7's...I'd like to try to gauge the level of improvement on modern movies. Sounds addicting according to those they have tried it, but seems excessive until I read comments like the HornEd's...it's great to read feedback from folks who have done the tests. I love my Cornwall/Heresy sound and haven't found the urge to turn it up much louder than 95 db but now I'm getting the urge to give it a try. I think I'll wait until I get the SVS Ultra and more surrounds....gee will I then be wanting to upsize the Heresys? My question to this poster is.... what do you currently own? Are you going from nothing to this killer system and by-passing all the experimentation and upgrades? What electronics are you using? what display? Please wow us (or at least me) with the end-results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Well, kjohnsonhp, since you found my post interesting I thought you might like to see a photo of my Legend HT front array. Pictured are three KLF-30's... Left Main, Center Main, Right Main flanked by a pair of KLF-C7 Front Effects speakers. The 7' subwoofer tower is composed of two SVS Ultras (from the first dozen ever made) stacked bottom to bottom. The subs are ported toward floor and ceiling and exceed the Dolby Reference Level for Professional Theaters of 121.5 dB at 20 Hz. These babies have been set up to go down to 16 Hz with ample SPL's. Note that the Center Main has a custom motorboard that was home built. The Mitsubishi RPHD has a 65" screen and DVD's are fed to it via progressive scan at a rate of 480p. The rear array consists of three horizontalized KLF-30's. The audio system in the music room consists of a pair of Klipschorns in the corner, Klipsch Belle in the Center, Cornwalls as side/surrounds and a Academy for rear effects. All speakers are in matching oiled walnut. These systems have been taken apart and will be used, in part, to build new systems. The Klipshorns are slated to become part of a new experiment with six or more fully horn loaded Heritage speakers pushed by either tubes or Monarchs. The legends will be going into a free standing theater that is now under construction at a resort in the Santa Cruz Mountains. I also have two complete 5.1 systems based on Infinity speakers and subwoofers. The Infinity experiments were testing the theories of Floyd E. Toole, Ph.d, who headed up an audio research lab for the Canadian government and then became VP for Hardin Industries. Toole is considered by most audio experts as the world's foremost authority on acoustics and psychoacoustics. His "white papers" make great reading for anyone wanting a solid grounding in modern sound. =HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyzdc Posted January 14, 2003 Author Share Posted January 14, 2003 kjohnsonhp, Unbelievably so, this is my first home theater. Now its kinda hard to say this since I acutally work in the home theater business, so I have been dealing with audio for about 3 years now. Yet, I never have dealt with a system of this scale, that is why I'm trying to get opinions of others who possibly have. Since I'm in the business I can get this setup at a more affordable price, at what price -- I'm not at liberty to say. Yet, my basic philosophy is that I want to do it right the first time, and not have to do it again. I was thinking of running an AVR4802 or 03, if it comes out soon, with this setup. I know the Klipsch are fairly efficient and the reciever is soft-sounding which helps make the Klipsch seem smoother. Now I heard the RF7 System (RF7, RC7, RS7) with 130 watt amplification and it sounded fantastic but I can't help to think that there is definatly room for improvement. Should I take the plunge to the AVR5803? Or possibly use a Denon as a preamp and maybe use parasound amps. Any suggestions? How much wattage should I be running to each one of these RF7s? Thanks agian! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdrake Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 ---------------- On 1/14/2003 3:31:12 AM jimmyzdc wrote: How much wattage should I be running to each one of these RF7s? Thanks agian! ---------------- C'mon, spill it. We all know you can buy speakers at 50% of list price . Anyhow, with the RF7-s, I think it's more a ? of the quality of the watts, rather than the quantity. They are very efficient. I was running a Denon 330 with 105 wpc into my Klipsch Chorus at 101db efficiency. I doubled the power with an Acurus 200x3 amp and the sound really improved, not because of the added wattage (I never really taxed the Denon at 105 watts) but because the quality was better in the Acurus. Cleaner, crisper, higher damping factor for more control, etc... DD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripod Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 ---------------- On 1/13/2003 11:41:13 AM jimmyzdc wrote: Unfortunatly, Im not sure if I can get the THX system. I have to make this purchase by the end of the month. If the THX system is availiable then its a possibility. ANybody know when its availiable or any of the specs on it? What it consists of and anything else. Thanks. Mmmmmm I cant wait for my theater.heheh ---------------- The THX system is not supposed to be available until the second quarter of 2003. Sorry, I guess you're stuck with the R-7 line-up. Could be worse, much, much worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 prodj101, "full range" and "bi-polar" ain't mutually exclusive! just ax a happy definitive-technology owner. (which i almost became!) the rs7 is a ~surround~ speaker; the rf7 is not. period. besides, the rs7 is rated down to 49hz. not too shabby, in my opinion. besides, he's gonna have plenty of subwoo***e to handle the really deep stuff anyway. i guess it really boils down to what you expect of a surround loudspeaker. if you want it to perform just like your front speakers, then i suppose you should use the same thing you have in front...in the back. but if you want it to envelope the sweet spot with a diffuse, unlocalizable ambience, then you really will only be happy with a speaker designed to do just that; most of which are di-polar or bi-polar designs. now roll over and say, "dougy's right" three times and i'll email you a cupcake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 OK rf7's front,rf7 center,maybe two,one stacked on the other,rf7 surround,two rf7 surround back,rf7,s for B corners on 5803,two rsw15's and two svs ultra's.10k in cables and you are ready to go!JUST kidding,rf7;s,rc7,rs7's,rb5II's,rsw15,I think this will sound O.K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 JDM, while the THX specs call for a di-pole side/surrounds (that's two monopole speakers aimed 180° from each other and wired out-of-phase for the maximum in non-directional sound), most manufacturers have gone to "bi-pole" speakers that are wired in-phase and often angled inward but with no speaker pointing toward the sweet spot. Some manufactures have gone to a "tri-pole" with two in-phase speakers (about 2000 Hz and above) angled away from the sweet spot and a third woofer (under 2000 Hz) in phase and directly facing the sweet spot. The WDST speaker technology on Klipsch surrounds is in the tri-pole category... a sort of half-way house that tends to cover up for room acoustic shortfalls and still portray some of the directionality that a movie mixer had in mind for the full-range side/surround channels. Directionality is determined when there is sufficient time elapsed between the first sound that reaches the ear and its echos. Speakers designed to create a maximum of ambient sound spray the sounds all around EXCEPT toward the sweet spot so the echos will arrive in a bunch so that determining directionality or exact timbre is next to impossible for most folks. So, that enveloping sound made popular by elevator music techniques usually comes at a price of more faithfully rendering the latest trends in full-range 5.1 (and above) DVD movie mixes. Carefully timbre matched systems generally require the same speaker in all 5.1 (or above) channels (except, of course, for the subwoofer array). If a modern movie mixer wants ambience, he will direct those ambient sounds to multiple channels... causing the sound to strike the ear from several directions sufficiently close together as to create the "ambience illusion." Of course, this also allows the mixer to have jets swoop back-to-front or a tank to rumbe across your rear array with out a break in speaker voicing and with full directionality as to the progress of the sound from one speaker to the next. It takes a little more care setting up a closely timbre matched HT system... but if you ever have the experience, it's hard to recommend anything else... unless there is just no room... or some horrible acoustic wooley booger haunts your HT area! =HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBB Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Well Ed, I have always agreed with your thoughts on the direct timbre matched speaker set up. I think that the center should match at least the left and right fronts. Right now I use 2 RF-7s for fronts, 2 Rf-7s for surrounds and 2 RF-5s for rears with the RC-7 handling the center duty. It sounds good. I experimented everywhere in my room with RS-7s before settling on the set up I just described .I tried interchanging them between being used as rears and surrounds and at different heights and angles. I dont use the RS-7s now but I have another use for them. I just couldnt get them to hit the sweet spot with a full sound like the RFs seem to provide in my room. Now my RC-7 is another story. Im pleased with its performance and Im biamping it with 400/400 watts since it can take 800.I would love to be able to use your idea for center matching by replacing the RC-7 with another RF-7. I just have one problem with that set up. I think I would have to become bi-polar myself before I could handle taking a hack saw to a brand new RF-7. On second thought perhaps its too late for me. Maybe Ive slipped into the world of the Quad-polar. AHHHHHHHHHH!. Where s that chainsaw? My Klipsch dealer will be happy to see me walk in with my Poulan. NOT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 here you go... this is what my parents have been working on... for like a year now... grrrrrrrrrr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 a link would be nice eh? http://soundwise.org/archive/id95.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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