Epic CF-3 questions

[stormin]

I think he even had his hand in the pretty famous bargain hunters Adcom GFA 555. It was a pretty darn big bang for your buck. My local classic stereo had it mated up to a pair of Klipsch Chorus speakers.

 

I have also liked the work of Dan D'Agostino most notably the Krell KSA 250.

[henry4841]

18 minutes ago, henry4841 said:

I would still say to Trey, show me on a scope how much power you are using at home on your speakers. Theory and real life circumstance are totally different. As talented as Trey is, I totally respect him being a Klipsch executive, I will stand with Nelson Pass who is a step or two above anyone when it comes to amplification. When it comes to Klipsch speakers I will turn to Roy and Trey and when it comes to amplifiers I will listen to Nelson Pass. When he says his 95db speakers never exceed a 1 watt window in his rather large listening room with visitors telling him time and again to turn it down where they can talk I will stand up and listen to what he has to say. I would enjoy Nelson and Trey debating the issue or for that matter anyone else from Klipsch. Klipsch speakers needing 100watts, get real guys. 

 

Many do not know who Nelson is on this forum. Every year, except for a few execptions, there is what is called a Burning Amp Festival in San Francisco where designers and electronic geeks fly in from all over the world to spend time with Nelson and hear whatever he has to say. Klipsch executives would be more than welcome to attend and I am sure given a spot to present a presentation. It would be good for Klipsch and everyone that attends or watch via internet. There has been speaker reps there before. The list of people giving presentations is long such as, Douglas Self, Roger Modjeski,  Siegfried Linkwitz, Wayne Colburn, Bob Cordell, Scott Wurcer, Damian Martin, Paul Norton, among others. The giants in audio reproductions. 

Again I say show me the proof in your listening with a scope hooked up to your system the power you are truly using while listening to your speakers. Words are cheap and mean nothing without evidence to back it up. 

 

An easy way for any layman is to just use a simple volt meter set up for AC and turn your speakers as loud as you ever listen and measure the AC voltage at your speaker terminals or the back of your amplifier. See if you ever see 2.83V's peak on the meter. The figure of 2.83V's is what it takes to achieve 1 watt into an 8 om speaker. Simple Ohms law anyone can do. If you know the resistance of your speaker and the peak V's at the speaker using ohms law you can find the true wattage you are actually truly using. 

 

With Treys' analysis a $25K 5 watt Japanese SET 300B amp is worthless on his speakers. If not good for Klipsch I guess in theory it is good for nothing other than a door stopper being most all other speakers are much less efficient. Lots of fools buying expensive tube SET amplifiers which last count I have around a dozen, 5watts or less. My ears are being fooled into believing I have more than enough power. Most visiting my home while I am listening tell me to turn it down where the can talk. I will assume they have been fooled into believing I have more than enough power using 2 watts on my LaScala's as well. 

 

 

[stormin]

11 minutes ago, henry4841 said:

 

With Treys' analysis a $25K 5 watt Japanese SET 300B amp is worthless on his speakers. If not good for Klipsch I guess in theory it is good for nothing other than a door stopper being most all other speakers are much less efficient. Lots of fools buying expensive tube SET amplifiers which last count I have around a dozen, 5watts or less. 

LOL. I doubt very much if that is where Trey was going with his response. 

 

Almost all amplifiers sound good on Klipsch as long as you don't bury the volume knob.

 

Now there are some pretty dirty sources that I wouldn't make that comment about.

[henry4841]

All what I have posted on power needs for our speakers is to help anyone who is considering buying an amplifier to make a wise chose. Not to argue with anyone here. I knew from the start there are many here that will never change what they believe they need as far as power in an amplifier. Nothing wrong with having plenty of power if you do not mind wasting money. Just be sure the first watt is excellent. Many of those high power average consumer amplifiers fail short on the first watt. 

[henry4841]

1 minute ago, stormin said:

LOL. I doubt very much if that is where Trey was going with his response. 

 

Almost all amplifiers sound good on Klipsch as long as you don't bury the volume knob.

 

Now there are some pretty dirty sources that I wouldn't make that comment about.

I am sure Trey would say what he quoted is in theory and not real world. Positive he wants all the sales he can get from those owners of low power tube amplifiers of which Klipsch is outstanding on. Make sense guys. 

 

You can buy a $5 voltmeter at Harbor Freight to do the test I mentioned but be ready for a total surprise. At least $5 is what the last ones I bought cost. I have a box full of them. Work really good but do not expect them to last long. 

[Marvel]

42 minutes ago, henry4841 said:

 

You can buy a $5 voltmeter at Harbor Freight to do the test I mentioned but be ready for a total surprise. At least $5 is what the last ones I bought cost. I have a box full of them. Work really good but do not expect them to last long. 

Not to argue at all. But most DVMs a.c. readings are good around 60 Hz. They won't be accurate for a wider bandwidth.

 

Henry. I totally understand what you are saying. The largest amp I have, and currently use, is 300wpc. It's powering my Heresy IIs. Yes, it's coasting along just fine. I think I'll swap back to the Duke, my D-45. @ 25wpc.

[stormin]

On 8/5/2023 at 1:40 PM, henry4841 said:

 

 

You can buy a $5 voltmeter at Harbor Freight to do the test I mentioned but be ready for a total surprise. At least $5 is what the last ones I bought cost. I have a box full of them. Work really good but do not expect them to last long. 

Call me silly but I would imagine most forum members own a volt/multimeter. The uses are endless. 

 

This is a fun hobby like formula one racing, boating, off roading or model airplanes. 

 

Telling everyone who buys at least a 10 watt amplifier are just wasting their money seems a little steep.

 

My biggest waste of money is computers. 

[Zen Traveler]

2 hours ago, stormin said:

SO, with about 500 Watts to each speaker, you can have 6db of head room and about 120db at your seat. 

IF you want 3db less than that, cut the power in half. 

Ummm...Isn't 120 dB at your seat pretty outrageous and deafening? I can see the LF hitting hard and low with a sub, but a speaker doing that seems kinda OT, imo. By his math it seems more realistic levels could be attained with a solid 100 watt amp for most folks. That's my take.

[stormin]

9 minutes ago, Marvel said:

 

 

The largest amp I have, and currently use, is 300wpc. It's powering my Heresy IIs. 

👍

[stormin]

On 8/5/2023 at 2:39 PM, Zen Traveler said:

Ummm...Isn't 120 dB at your seat pretty outrageous and deafening? I can see the LF hitting hard and low with a sub, but a speaker doing that seems kinda OT, imo. By his math it seems more realistic levels could be attained with a solid 100 watt amp for most folks. That's my take.

Personally I tap out at about 115dbs usually for only a song and back to around 100-105 for some good jamming.

 

I got out my meter and my normal  listening is around 80. 

[Marvel]

80db is pretty normal for me...

[Zen Traveler]

18 minutes ago, Marvel said:

80db is pretty normal for me...

Me too. I'm mainly a multichannel guy and use a sub to get peaks in the 102 to 106 dB range for really slamming bass on a few songs. 

[henry4841]

1 hour ago, Marvel said:

Not to argue at all. But most DVMs a.c. readings are good around 60 Hz. 

 

 

But Bruce we are not measuring Hz but voltages at speakers to determine wattage. When I want to measure Hz I use a scope and signal generator with my signal generator determining the frequency. No matter the frequency of the signal but it's strength from the amplifier is what we want to know to determine wattage. Frequency has no bearing of finding P. All that is needed is R, V, and I to determine P. That is unless I am slipping in my basic electronics knowledge.  

 

"Not to argue" you said. That is what we have fun doing on social forums but let's call it discussing.🙂

 

 

I started posting again on this thread with the prodding of Melvin in a PM. Melvin is Flevoman. He wanted to hear more and I have succeeded in others commenting so he can hear more opinions. This subject comes up every week if not every day. Those saying we need many watts with our horn speakers. Most of the time I am like other members here that know better and just laugh and make no post but this has been fun hearing all the same again and again. I do not expect to change anyone's opinion but I do hope many will take what I said for my camp of followers that are using low wattage amps on our speakers. The majority of visitors to this site are the general population of listeners with many now being home theatre folks as well with just a few true serious audiophiles. Most will be perfectly happy with any amp they purchase for the Klipsch speakers. I forgot to mention along with my excellent mega watt class A/B amp I have two class D TPA3255 amps with 300watts per channel if memory is correct. Both have linear PS and not switchers. Excellent sounding in their on way ever though I never use but a few watts from either. Class D is the wave of the future. Cheap, small, cool running and excellent sounding but still they are not class A. Class A is what many if not most audiophiles want running their speakers. Particularly the Heritage speaker owners. 

 

In front of a stack of receivers I like to play with from time to time. That stack is all the ones that have been refurbished waiting on a new home. So I bet I have more high power amplifiers than most on this forum. One of the TPA3255's is an original Texas Instruments board and the other a Chines one. The amp to the far left in the picture is one of the first Nelson Pass Firstwatt clones, the M2, I built. Built from whatever I could find around my house. Excellent sounding amplifier Nelson recommended for horn speakers. 

 

 

[henry4841]

1 hour ago, Marvel said:

80db is pretty normal for me...

Hey Bruce, you back in Georgia now? Safe and pleasant trip I hope. 

[Marvel]

57 minutes ago, henry4841 said:

Hey Bruce, you back in Georgia now? Safe and pleasant trip I hope. 

Oh yeah, been back to work this past week. Brutal trip home (as well as the trip over). Still working on getting the days turned around.

[Marvel]

7 hours ago, henry4841 said:

But Bruce we are not measuring Hz but voltages at speakers to determine wattage. When I want to measure Hz I use a scope and signal generator with my signal generator determining the frequency. No matter the frequency of the signal but it's strength from the amplifier is what we want to know to determine wattage. Frequency has no bearing of finding P. All that is needed is R, V, and I to determine P. That is unless I am slipping in my basic electronics knowledge.  

 

You aren't slipping at all, but... your DMM/DVM on the a.c. setting (on most) is meant to measure the voltage of a sinusoidal waveform and for many meters, most accurate around 60hz or lower. I just read most are OK up to about 500hz. That MAY be where the majority of your music voltage/energy is, but it's a complex waveform.

 

Not measuring frequency, just voltage. It may not give you an accurate reading for that, but enough to prove your point.

 

Cheers, my friend.

[avguytx]

I've had 3 pairs of CF-3's, currently own version 1's, and run them typically with either a 250wpc Rockford Fosgate RF-2000 (32 MOSFET's), a modified 460 wpc Carver M-1.0t, or a Dynakit ST-70 (in the fall/winter).  Out the 3, currently, the Rockford amp sounds the best; must be something about those Mosfets.  I don't use all the power but they do sound good with it when the need/desire arises to play louder.

 

Epic's need more power in general.  They are nowhere near as efficient as what their rating is, I assure you.  I have a pair of ads L1230's that are rated at 95db @ 1w/1m and there is negligible difference in levels if I switch. 

[henry4841]

13 hours ago, Marvel said:

 

You aren't slipping at all, but... your DMM/DVM on the a.c. setting (on most) is meant to measure the voltage of a sinusoidal waveform and for many meters, most accurate around 60hz or lower. I just read most are OK up to about 500hz. That MAY be where the majority of your music voltage/energy is, but it's a complex waveform.

 

Not measuring frequency, just voltage. It may not give you an accurate reading for that, but enough to prove your point.

 

Cheers, my friend.

I understand what you are saying Bruce, which is new to me, but I am somewhat skeptical. Are you saying that the typical $40, $50 VOM will not measure AC signals above 500hz accurately. I measure all my builds at different frequencies but most time just power output at 1Khz. At 1Khz with my tube amps I measure really close to what the engineers in the data sheet project for the tube I am using. In other words I am measuring at 1Khz what the engineers that designed the tube say I should have. You could very well be correct but I want to get on my bench and verify what you saying at different frequencies on some of my different meters. I have 3 or more on my bench at all times. I do not have a lab volt meter only the typical ones sold on Amazon that I honestly have never checked the spec sheet on. None over $50. 

 

After measuring max out at 1Khz I typically look at the range of frequencies on my scope to see if the amp holds up at the extremes of the audio frequency range. I have never depended on my voltmeter for testing output at different frequencies. 

[Marvel]

I know my Fluke 77 won't, but it's also over 30 yrs old. A new, cheap MIC $30 one may do a lot better. A lot actually have a freq. meter function.

 

I will say that if you always use 1 kHz and the load is the same, you are at least consistent with your test and are most likely fine.

 

B.

[henry4841]

1 hour ago, Marvel said:

I know my Fluke 77 won't, but it's also over 30 yrs old. A new, cheap MIC $30 one may do a lot better. A lot actually have a freq. meter function.

 

I will say that if you always use 1 kHz and the load is the same, you are at least consistent with your test and are most likely fine.

 

B.

You really have peaked my curiosity on this subject, whether a modern hobbyist type VOM will function on AC beyond 500hz. As you know most measurements on amplifiers are done on the DC range and not AC so I have never checked. I will very disappointed if what you say is correct about the most common VOM's purchased by hobbyist.  

 

We have strayed far from the topic of this thread started by Melvin so I will PM you the results on some of my meters later in the week and not on this thread. 

 

Take care Bruce. You are in my prayers.