Got my theater put back together yesterday. I love my RF7s

[skonopa]

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On 5/8/2003 12:55:07 PM georgie wrote:

Yes!!!! I think it is Krylon that has come out with a new spray paint made for plastic. Not supposed to peel off like regular paint will.

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Also to add, you are going to want to lightly sand the plastic to "rought it up" so that the paint will stick to it better. You will probably want to prime it first, than paint it to the final color you are looking for. Might not also be bad idea to use some kind of sealer over the paint to help prevent scratches and such.

[m00n]

Thanks you two.

Now can you advise on plastic bondo? The arm rests have Pepsi and Diet Pepsi logos on them and I want to conceal them. I hate pepsi.

[cluless]

arm covers? leather padded?

[Frzninvt]

I like the all monopole array as well - I have the big boys in the back and I can assure you they will kick the crap out of those single woofer dual tweeter set-ups. I'll put my La Scala's and Heresy II's rears up against any bipole, dipole, tripole, myhole, WDST, whatever! Bring it on! You know what they say Bigger IS Better, QMan has got it down.

[HornEd]

Right on!!! Q-man's my hero and gets my vote for President of the Klipsch Mono-polecats... 'cause we are a different "stripe" than our "WDST Wonders"... we are all brothers and sisters under the Klipsch. Sure now an then there's a Klipschtomaniac loose on the Forum... and probably we all have treaded upon the edge of decorum a time or three... but lying in wait to pounce on someone just because you haven't been down that road is, at best, a Boze-Oh attitude.

Honest disagreements do not call for acerbic rhetoric any more than poor spelling skills indicate that the light is dim upstairs. Yeah, and probably salting an absurd bird's tale ought not to be done with out a webmaster's license... I guess I have to learn to turn the other cheek... but just now I am sitting on it.

m00n, thanks for that exhaustive soap box appearance in search of "whirled peas" by turning your cyber hose on the "hot dogs" and giving us a chance to be Forum franks who respect each others right to disagree.

It looks like beyond the old gumbies, Pepsi tide marks.... that your HT will be well seated... you're a credit to the Forum and so are all those with positive enthusiasm to cheer you on your HT way. =HornED

[Bill H.]

Ed, Moon

Sure this has been covered, but whats WDST stand for?

I like SK's idea for the Gum, I was gonna suggest Ice, but his idea sounds like its alot less messy. Good Luck-glad you had a good experience w/ebay. (no flames implied...)

[m00n]

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On 5/8/2003 1:42:11 PM Frzninvt wrote:

I like the all monopole array as well - I have the big boys in the back and I can assure you they will kick the crap out of those single woofer dual tweeter set-ups. I'll put my La Scala's and Heresy II's rears up against any bipole, dipole, tripole, myhole, WDST, whatever! Bring it on! You know what they say Bigger IS Better, QMan has got it down.

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While your big boys in the back my kick the crap out of my single woofer tripole speaks, I think you guys just keep missing my point.

I don't have a room that would be good for direct speakers. I could be wrong here, but good lord, it seems to me that if you have a speaker that is only MAX of 4 feet from your head, and you have several rows of seats, you need something that is going to spray sound in different directions so you don't end up with a void.....

Now I am no pro at all this, but, it would sure seem to me that if I put direct firing speaks on my side, what I would end up with is

VA ROOOM.

Where VA is the front speaker, ROOOM is the side and all that space between is the distance between the front array and the surround. A big empty gap.

Now if I keep with the tripole, it would seem to make since that I would get a much better pan from front to back

VA ROOOOOOOOOOM.

Again I may try to audition some RC7s, but for now I am very content with my alluded to piece of **** RS7s.

If my room was even 4 feet wider, I would be all over your guys suggestions of monopoles, but I don't have that luxury so I am sticking to what I think is going to sound best in my room to cover with ambiance and surround sound 3 rows of seats.

I know you guys want to think the RS7 can't handle it's own, but alas, your incorrect. It has a very direct sound when needed. To me, I think I get the best of both worlds.

Jeebus, just accept it, I have.

Nuff said!

[skonopa]

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On 5/8/2003 2:24:21 PM Bill H. wrote:

Sure this has been covered, but whats WDST stand for?

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Wide Dispersion Sound Technology.

Just Klipsch's answer to the typical Di-pole/Bi-pole speaker. It puts a mid-range driver in the part that is usually "null" on typical di/bi-pole speakers - basically a "tri-pole" speaker.

[Bill H.]

SK,

Thanks for the explanation.............neat idea.

Mr. m00n,

I like your comment "To me, I think I get the best of both worlds. "

You and the family, have to live with it. Please Post Pic's when you can.

[HornEd]

Well, Bill, skonopa has "skonoped" me again! Here's the explanation straight from the Klipsch web site: The new RS-7 surrounds also feature Klipschs exclusive Wide Dispersion Surround Technology (WDST), which produces the diffuse effects needed for envelopment as well as the direct sounds necessary for good localization.

Actually, m00n, my horizontalized surrounds (KLF-30's: 2-12" woofers plus a horn tweeter and horn mid-range) are less than three feet from the audience and perform marvelously. I have no problem with those who like their WDST speakers... I just have a problem with those people who say what I have working doesn't work. In the current yurt configuration, I can seat upwards of 50 people at a time... so having a system that allows people to sit close to the surrounds is imperative. In this case, I actually re-engineered the rear array to be able to have people sit closer.

As far as I know, the whole concept of di-pole speakers started as a way to have better quality sound in marginal seating areas in commercial theaters. In my view (and that of a host of others), the price for expanding the sweet spot was paid in lower quality on issues of programmed directionality and timbre matching realism. Frankly, being inundated with sound to the point where normal acoustic differentiation no longer works doesn't seem to be a good plan to have on all the time.

A correctly set up monopole system provides the overwhelming effect when it is programmed into the movie by the audio engineers as an admixture of discreet signals. Hopefully, one day we will be able to buy such technology off the peg and really get the most out of what the DVD format has to offer.

The acoustic and psychoacoustic principles that I use can be found by reading about the theories of the late Paul W. Klipsch and the much renowned by his peers, Floyd E. Toole. To the best of my knowledge, Mr. Paul had nothing to do with (and no control over) WDST technology. And, again, WDST makes a lot of sense for a lot of installations... but just not mine.

Bill H., for your benefit, WDST has two (relatively small) speakers aimed in opposite directions to fire all frequencies above about 2,500 Hz to the front and the back of the room... and one small speaker aimed toward the sweet spot that handles frequencies below about 2,500 Hz. The result is that their is directionality in the lower range... but the higher range bounces off so many objects and strikes the ear repeatedly from many directions (due to the reflectivity of the room and objects in it) and strike the ear so close together that your mind gets confused and results in the impression that you have been enveloped by a sound that has been reshaped by whatever cumulative effect of bouncing around your particular room happens to be.

Modern DVD's (unlike the old ProLogic system) engineered by modern audio engineers have discrete channels to the surrounds so that the amount of sound from any one surround is quite predictable. By adjusting how much sound goes to which of five (or more) speakers, the sound engineer can approximate the acoustic environment of the movie in your own room. WDST speakers, IMHO, do not allow the same degree of quality that monopole speakers do in recreating the acoustic pattern inherent in the DVD.

A good ear and an understanding of the phenomenon quickly demonstrates the clear superiority of a properly set up monopole system in a reasonable good acoustic listening area. But, this kind of attention to detail and the rewards that come from it are not common knowledge by most audio store salespeople... and manufactures can move more equipment if the surrounds flood listeners with arbitrary rather than precision acoustic recreations.

Since I have put my second system in a place to survey a broader section of the population, a whole lot of relatively affluent folks have become disappointed with their own home theaters... most of which have wimpy centers and fuzzy surrounds. At least friend m00n has risen beyond the wimpy center level. We all admire your courage and the consideration that you have for mrs.m00n and the wee m00nbeams. =HornED

PS: Sorry, Keith, but I prefer to do it naturally.

[T2K]

Ed, your incessant need to berate others tells a lot about your physique. I have no problem wih any speaker that anyone prefers. I do have a problem with the manner in which you retaliate with blundering BS and critique about another person, their state of residence, or any of the other tools that you use to try to browbeat people in submission.

You own speakers. Wow! Do you think that you have accomplished something of greatness because you purchased an object? It seems to me that if you are so impressed with that object, then the glory should go to the builder of said object. Maybe the speakers can be buried with you one day. You will be eternally happy.

My spallang evidently sometimes zooms right over your old thick grey head. The repeated misspelling in my previous post is indicative of your constant repeated use of the word spray, another word that you hide and use, evidently, in some subliminal type of artificial intelligence that you think you posses. The word 'criticism' included a misspelling which indicates what I believe describes everything that comes from your mouth.

Yo buddy doun souff,

Keith

[Audible Nectar]

Ahhhh, WDST vs. monopole wars......first it was tubes vs. solid state, Heritage vs. RF, SVS vs everyone else, and now, WDST vs. Monopole - the sequel.

I've seen and done this both ways. In the beginning of home theater - the pro-logic daze - I dismissed the format entirely, due to the absence of discrete, full range signal to each speaker. In short it sounded unrealistic, a gimmick designed to empty the wallet, without delivering the honest goods.

If it is realistic to expect soundstage (the ability to pinpoint instruments and vocals in space) from our monopole speakers in a 2 channel system, why is it unrealistic to expect proper soundstage in a multichannel environment using monopole speakers, given that both scenarios are employing full range, discrete channels? The answer is, it's not. If the sound engineer knows what he is doing, we will get proper directionality using monopole speakers in a multichannel environment, given proper speaker placement.

Also worth noting is the fact that all channels are full range, so why compromise any of the channels in the system? Sure the RS series are made to go with the RF series of mains, but what could possibly be a better timbre match for an RF-7 than another RF-7? Now in m00n's case, where RF-7 rears are not an option, then he must choose between the RC and the RS. I would recommend he try both if he can - but I would still opt for multiple monopoles if possible.

All of the above opinions are reinforced when it comes to the subject of multichannel music. If one uses the HT for multichannel music or concert video use, you most certainly want identical speakers all around - the path to a multichannel no-compromise system. The Eagles: Hell Freezes Over will expose every weakness in the surrounds and center vs. your strong mains - all must be identical to get full benefit. The center channel will puke on this disc at high SPL if not up to the quality of the mains, since that's where the drums are.

This is where the WDST gets thrown out the window. Just my opinion.

[m00n]

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On 5/8/2003 3:36:16 PM HornEd wrote:

Actually, m00n, my horizontalized surrounds (KLF-30's: 2-12" woofers plus a horn tweeter and horn mid-range) are less than three feet from the audience and perform marvelously. I have no problem with those who like their WDST speakers... I just have a problem with those people who say what I have working doesn't work.

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Horn, you got me wrong, I am not doubting what you say is true, I am simply saying that in my logical thinking, the room I have, directional speakers may not be the best option. I could be very wrong on my thinking, I by no means am a pro at all this. I have simply come to this conclusion based on what I know, read and suspect to be accurate.

I am open to hearing 4 RC7s to replace my RC7s, but, it is something that I am not too worried about right now. Maybe if I have a $2000.00 laying around some day I will . But for now, I just want to make due with the RS7s and accoustically treat my room for them.

[skonopa]

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On 5/8/2003 5:06:46 PM dndphishin wrote:

Also worth noting is the fact that all channels are full range, so why compromise any of the channels in the system? Sure the RS series are made to go with the RF series of mains, but what could possibly be a better timbre match for an RF-7 than another RF-7? Now in m00n's case, where RF-7 rears are not an option, then he must choose between the RC and the RS. I would recommend he try both if he can - but I would still opt for multiple monopoles if possible.

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Yes, in an ideal, perfect, world, that would be the case. Unfortunatly there is just no way in hell that I could fit an RF-7 for my center. I'll take the first person out to dinner that can show me how I can fit an RF-7 for the center in my system! Also, that is without having to perform any kind of surgery, either on the speaker and/or on my room. Perhaps, in the future, I'll try to redesign the setup to accomidate a full RF-7 tower, but right now, I have neither the money, nor the time. The time and money are now being devoted to making upgrades and repairs to the house itself (as well as refinancing my house loan)

Also, notice in these pictures, the full size towers that I have as surrounds (along with the RS-7s). Those pictures are outdated, since those Infinity RS2000.5 towers have been replaced with RF-5s. I wanted to put RF-7s, but again, no way I could fit them. So, yes, I do have monopoles all the way around, but I also have the ability to switch to the WDST surrounds if I so choose.

As much as I would love to have RF-7s all the way around, I just simply cannot do it - not that I don't want to do, I just simply can't do it. The reason - space!

So as a compromise, I have the configuration that I have now - and it suits me perfectly.

Now to be perfectly clear, this is not to say that I doubt what HornED or the others say, it is just that given realistic limits in both space and money, not everybody can do the full range towers all the way around - that is why Klipsch has the speakers like the RC-7 and the RS-7.

[Audible Nectar]

Skonopa, that is certainly understood. My statement applies to the ideal, IOW, a "do this if you can" statement. Your situation is shared by many. Maybe we can get Klipsch to build the uber-reference center, a ready built horizontal RF-7! Obviously, there's a market - just look at the custom center builders for proof. Hell, we created a market!

But for those who are reading/lurking here, or may bump into this later during a forum search, one has my opinion on the "ideal" arrangement, if it is feasible for the reader.

Same applies to the rears - not many will have room or be willing to make room for full size rears, but if one has room, again, the "ideal".

Since many aren't willing or simply don't have room, that's why the smaller options are out there. But since we are all looking for "better than average" performance, we look outside the typical box, even if it was the box klipsch built.

[skonopa]

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On 5/8/2003 6:46:18 PM dndphishin wrote:

But for those who are reading/lurking here, or may bump into this later during a forum search, one has my opinion on the "ideal" arrangement, if it is feasible for the reader.

and

Since many aren't willing or simply don't have room, that's why the smaller options are out there. But since we are all looking for "better than average" performance, we look outside the typical box, even if it was the box klipsch built.

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That, I can certainly agree with! If the people have the space and money to put the same full-sized speaker all the way around, than I do definitly agree that is the way to go, along with the subwoof-age to go with it! I tried - look at the RF-7 fronts and the RF-5 surrounds I am sporting - not the exact same, but close enough given my space constraints . Who knows what the future may have in store .

[HornEd]

While I may have a problem with people that lay around to take potshots at what has proven to be a good approach for those with the resources, inclination, acoustic potential and "WAF-ability"... in no way does it mean that I look down on people who find a roomful of acoustic fuzz to their liking. I mean, after all, the "high end" audiophile speakers seem to be engineered to deliver an unnatural sound that some high-toned folks have agreed to call "audiophile" quality... and then there's Bose that claims to be the top of the heap in quality (not so) instead of sales (sadly true).

I have seen beyond the manufacturers veil... and the answer for Klipsch ears is monopole, timbre-matching, mostly horizontal speakers, at every discrete location! I have even made the concept work in a space only 8' wide! The point is that set up correctly with an SPL meter... wonderful things happen!

Our friend "fini di Fabaione" even has the same kind of subwoofing mains that "Talkety-Talkety-Talkety-Talk-too-Keith" has... so his "HornED" approach to a center could be a real ear & eye opener! Hmmm, with his savvy of woodworking and sound skills, maybe he is not pulling our mill-turned legs... =HornED

PS: BTW fini, on your Italian cup the middle name is probably the manufacturer, the last name is the Italian city most known for its taste. But, the "Fabaione" is a challenge that tickles my brain pan just enough to know there's more beyond the fog. Next time I go up to S.F., I'll have to peruse my library of Italian cookbooks. Sure would like to hear from some "Forumer" who can shed some light on the Fabaione facet of fini.

[avman]

i'm sold on the idea of 'hornEd-zontalising' a klf 20/30 into a center channel.

i am EVER grateful to talk-to-keith for selling me a pair of ksp-s6's in great condition that work PERFECTLY for MY ht room.

i WISH y'all would cool off the fussin'

having said that, the pictures i posted in 'home theater'avman has his and a customer's ht rooms published'

may lend some light as to why:

i chose ksp-s6's over rs-7's at roughly the same cost to me (i am a klipsch dealer) basically, the front half of the 'wedge' faces my sweet spot with a 6 1/2" woofer AND a horn, just like a small monopole would; the rear half of the wedge faces my rear wall and provides dispersed sound reflecting off the rear wall.

i can ASSURE you that eagles 7 bridges road sounds great on my system. the thx 6.1 intro w/the exploding sphere and subsequent thunder clap are beautifully centered in the middle of my rear speakers, whilst the rain at the beginning is wonderfully spread out across the whole room.

so-there ya go-my 2 cents.

avman.

[m00n]

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On 5/9/2003 4:25:00 PM avman wrote:

i'm sold on the idea of 'hornEd-zontalising' a klf 20/30 into a center channel.

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What does that mean?

Horn, I would like to audion 4 RC7s in place of my RS7s... But just a lot of money right now. Maybe avman can help me with some returned RC7s or something.

[skonopa]

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On 5/9/2003 4:36:44 PM m00n wrote:

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On 5/9/2003 4:25:00 PM avman wrote:

i'm sold on the idea of 'hornEd-zontalising' a klf 20/30 into a center channel.

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What does that mean?

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Geez m00n! You need to go back and re-read some of the old threads! .

Anyway, that just means modifying what is normally a floor-standing speaker to a center speaker configuration - so they can use it horizontally above or below the screen - mostly for space consideration and also so that they have the perfect match across the front. It seems that most of the Klipsch floorstanding speakers are of the Tweet-Mid-Mid configuration. Some people like to modify the speaker to be Mid-Tweet-Mid configuration, and turning the tweeter horns so they stay horizontal. HornED seems to have started this trend, at least here on these boards. I don't feel comfortable enough to do something like that to an RF-7. Now, if I could find one on the used market for real cheap, I would not mind attempting it.