skonopa Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 I just finally got back form Indy myself. I finally hit my front door at 8 PM here in Fredericksburg, VA. I cannot thank Klipsch and the employees enough for a truly awesome experience there. I personally want to thank Trey Cannon for showing us his system as well as giving me a signed copy of PWK's book. The trip started out with me arrive in Indy at around 12:30 or so. I waited for Jhawk (Rob) to show up so he can ride up with me. I rented a PT Cruiser - pretty cool little cars. I dropped him off at the hotel, checked in, and then headed up to Anderson to visit my Aunt Pat and Uncle Dick. I even got to see one of my cousins - Bill. It has probably been at least 20 years since I have visited there (amazing I was still able to find thier place)! I had a wonderful time there and they even took me to dinner at a really nice Mexican place there in Anderson - Real Hacienda. It gives Aztlan here in F'burg a run for thier money . I never did get that damn scanner my Uncle has to work under Windows XP. Gotta love MicroShaft and thier "fine" products! (Yes, I am a Unix/Linux guy at heart - screw Microsoft! - but I digress...) After returning from Anderson at around 11 of so PM, the guys were still going strong at the hotel. I finally got to meet some of you folks in person and that was cool! Andy's Heresy's where definitly a nice piece of work and sounded wonderful. I also got a copy of the "Dope from Hope" papers - Thanks Gil! Also thanks to John Albright for providing the snacks as well as JHawk for making up the name-badges. I only stayed up till about 1 - I was dogged @$$ tired (been up since 5 that morning!). Saturday morning, it was off to Klipsch. That was indeed a full day of playing in the labs and demo areas. I did not get the chance to do the ABX wire test myself, although I did watch others do it (just did not have enough time). Still, I came to the conclusion that I think it is worth it to get better grade wire than the cheapy, 18gauge, 13cent/foot stuff, but not worth it to get that really expensive, $1500, esoteric, "super-cable". The new Reference stuff is really nice and those new RS subs are going to be killer. I think they will be the best in that price range and class of sub. I also got to hear a full Reference 35 HT setup as well as a full Reference 7 ht (like I have not heard one before ). The '35's are very good sounding speakers and those of you that have said you are getting them - you will be in for a hell of a treat! After hearing the Reference 7's just only confirmed that I made the right choice, especially after just getting done hearing the complete Heritage line. It also confirmed that my next upgrade is going to get some better amplification instead of running them through the amps in the Denon AVR3802 that I currently have. Screw getting the bigger TV for now! I want some kick-@$$ amps! Some of the Heritage purists may cringe at this, but after that experience, I honostly think those RF-7s can definitly hold thier own against the Heritage. Are they better? No, just different. Are the Heritage better? The K-Horns I certainly think are, but the rest? Not really - just a different sound. I also finally got to listen to much vaunted, venerable K-Horns! I can see what all the fuss is about. Yes, the LaScalas are some very nice speakers and that was what I wanted to get, or the Cornwalls (which I got to hear at Trey's). But damn, those K-Horns are sure nice! And the beauty is that demo room is about the same size as my game room down in the basement, and I do have two good corners down there! Now, if I can only find a pair locally . I even got to see some of those new Reference satellite speakers (RSX-4, RCX-5, etc). They look sharp and look like they will sound good. Unfortunatly, I did not get the chance to actually listen to any of them. The Lab itself was very fasinating, especially to me, being such a technical guy. The most fascinating aspects was the "Klippel" test, in which they use a ranging laser to measure the movements of a speaker driver cone. It is amazing the wealth of data they can get out of that test! All of the "Q" values, the operating temp of the driver, cone movement graphs and so forth! I would love to see the coding that goes behind that software - very math intense. The Anechoic champer was also really neat! They use that massive 4-way door to enter the room. One quadrant is filled up with the sound absorbent while another quadrent has a platform for placing a K-Horn. Quite ingenious, since they do need a corner to test the K-Horn. They seal the door using an inflatable rubber gasket to help lock out any outside noise. The room is independantly suspended, mainly to help keep the high-way noise out (the building is right next to I-495 expressway). They have a smaller champer they use for testing the in-wall/in-ceiling gear. They also have a "Stereo-Lithography" machine they use to make protoype parts. That also a very neat device. There is some kind of liquid plastic/expoxy type material. A laser flashes across the surface and where the laser touches, the material hardens. A part is built up layer-by-layer. After the part is complete, they bake it in an oven to help set it even better. Really neat stuff there. I also got to meet Mike Klipsch - the son of Fred Klipsch. A very nice gentleman. I would have loved to got to meet Fred himself, but he was away on travel. I cannot remember everybody's names at this moment - will need to look back throgh to reassossicate names with faces. Bummer I did not make the group shot, though. A couple of us were to busy BSing with one of the product marketing guys in the demo area playing with that Denon DVD-2900 they had in there. Afterwords it was off to Trey's house to play with his setup! That was cute watching his daughter dressed up in a cow-girl outfit dancing to the music (where was that video camera when I needed ). Very nice setup he had there. Really did sound good. Yep, that THX trailor can get loud - ahhhhh.... Dinner at the Jazz Kitchen - wow, how many speaker companies do you know that treat thier customers to a Filet Mignon dinners? That was very good food (and after I post this, I am going to try to track down an e-mail address to send the Jazz Kiten folks a 'thank you' note. After that, it was a night on the town - first to check out the sound system at the Lotus club - pretty neat, but all that Hip-Hop music was really starting to grate on me! Went across the street to an Irish pub - more my speed - got a couple right here downtown F'burg. We just spent the next few hours shooting the breeze. Great chatting it up with 'Indy' - next time, I hope to check his setup out. Sunday - drove 3 hours south of Indy to Holiday World (yep, JM - that 'kid' in a man's body thing ). The Raven and Legend are two very good wooden coaster rides. The water-park and wavepool were really nice, given how hot it was. Finally got back home just tonight. I have several pictures at both Klipsch and Holiday World. I used one of those disposable cameras so now I got to get them developed. As soon as I do, I scan a few in and post'em up. Again, thanks for a truly awesome time - Klipsch. That was the extra thing to get me to remain a loyal customer - Paradigm be damned! (I hope I did not forget anything... ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 I posted thanks to KAT in the General Questions. But let me add thanks to those who brought food and drink. BTW, I'm the guy in the back row with the suit and the Klipsch tie. I listened to the ABX system using pink noise from a test CD. To my ear, there was no difference between the red and black zip cord and the braded Cat-5 in the AB comparison. There was no point in doing random switching and choosing. So, I'm more than ever convinced that wire is wire. Zip cord is good enough. I'd drive back to Indy any Saturday if the proponent of Monster Wire will set up a test of that and let him pick it out on an ABX. I'll buy dinner in any event. I'll also bring some three decade old Sony RCA connectors and see if anyone can pick that out over anything else. Someone in the group didn't pick up his DfH. I can mail that if you message me with your address. If anyone else wants a copy, you can message me too. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Guys... thanks for the reviews and pics... keep them coming! By the way, I'm glad that you all failed the A-B-X wire test... Although i have never participated in an ABX, I have never been able to reliably tell the difference between wires... I was beginning to worry that I was the only guy without golden ears. Trey, are you using zip cord in your system? Mace, I'm guessing it's you next to the mural? ... Gil, I can't seem to find the guy with the klipsch tie in the pics so far... but i'd be very interested in any other ABX tests that you manage to set up. Later... Rob EDIT: Found the Klipsch tie Gil, sorry hadn't noticed you in trey's kp22 picture... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdrake Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Mace - Was this the Bose demo? My, seems those Klipsch employees get younger every year! And I don't EVEN want to know what you guys were doing here: And I see KAT spared no expense in decorating the HT demo room: Thanks for posting the pics! Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cluless Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Wow, Thanks guys. Sounds like a great time was had by all! Trey, That picture you took of everyone in chairs, What's with the eyes? scarey. I dont think I've seen a camera with "silver eye reduction" Congrats JHawk on the upcoming family addition! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny dB Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 That's me in the group shot kneeling. I'm in the one in the black hat and black shirt. I have some pics of the trip. I have to post them 1 at a time though, sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j-malotky Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 The Lab tour was great. Here is my quick story. The first stop was in the lobby itself. The artwork in the lobby depicts the engineering principles defined by PWK. Next to that was a mural of PWK and his life. All the decorations, colors etc were designed by Judy Klipsch who we got to meet as well. The second stop was the PWK library. Engineer Jim showed us many items in his collection. The most impressive was the book PWK referred to as the old testament of Audio On the blank pages in front of the book were PWKs corrections of the books errors. In many of the diagrams and graphs, you could see PWKs additions and notes in the margins of the book. What Jim revealed to us was the initial engineering and research that defined and later became the Khorn. Next we went back to the lab and they showed us the Anabolic chamber they use to test speakers. The door is a carousel with a corner for Khorns, wedges etc. It looked like the same 7ton door used in hope. We went inside in groups. When the door in shut, the silence almost hurt your ears. When somebody would talk it was like there voice was a laser beam to your head. While inside Trey showed us the super sensitive microphone and explained how it was heated etc. Very interesting. While outside the chamber, Trey turned on the mic with the door sealed and we could watch the VU meter bounce as we made noise OUTSIDE the chamber. Later in the day, Trey did some testing in the chamber as some of us watched. He also showed us some data off of the AK-4 Khorn comparing it to data collected from the AA and ALK netwrorks. Very interesting. They then showed us there KLIPPLE test. They use a measuring laser to record distance speaker cones travel at different frequescies. They explained that this test does in 5 mins what it use to take 2 weeks to test. They also showed us there Strio Litho machine I think it was called which usees lasers to make 3D prototype parts for engineering. We then broke up into groups and went into 3 different areas, the A-B wire test, which I did not get to. Just too much to do. The second area was the Heritage room where they had the entire Heritage line displayed. The room was a bit too echoish, but they still sounded great powered by the Aragon SS amps. The third room was a RF-7 home theater. I did to this room in the morning, so I went later in the afternoon with Engineer Jim and Steve P a third engineer (cant remember his name) and a few other members. After watching scene 29 of the Matrix (what else) we discussed and compared the RF sound to Heritage since I have a Heritage HT. Had a nice talk about Heritage and Klipsch dealers. The Jubilee. How different amps sound using Heritage. And my custom Heritage center, since Steve P helped me even before he worked at Klipsch. I bet we talked for 45 mins with Engineer Jim. Before lunch we all got into a theater decked out in the new Klipsch reference line and aragon. We watched the Ronin car scene, then a bit of the Pink floyd Dark side. Very nice. At lunch they gave us T-shirts, Bull pins and a pen with our lunch. Lunch also included lots of audio talk with other members. After lunch we went back to the lab, Has an extremely impressive subwoofer demo from an engineer named Dion. They showed us how they test subwoofers outside since the chamber can only go down to 80 hz due to its size. One test they showed how the RF subs go below 30 Hz which SVS claims. Trey explained how it was there room, that they did not test it in a large enough area. They also showed a Polk and a Velodyne (I think) do not remember the models and how they double frequency at certain volumes. I believe it was 40 hz, it made 40 and 80 hz. What a tour. So very interesting. After the tour we went over to Treys house to watch his HT which I covered already. After that we went out to dinner at the Jazz kitchen. I was at the table with Gregorius and his lovely wife, Artto, Jhalk, and HDBR. I think our whole table was enjoying the Fillet Mignon. Andy commented on how we all protect the queen being beefeaters. (A bit of Andy humor) Meal included Hor devoirs, and cheesecake for desert all on KLIPSCH nickel. The food and companionship was all first class. We all had a great time. Afterwards, we went down to the Lotus nightclub where Trey gave us a tour of the sound systems. The dance floor was on the second floor had 6 of KP??? Full range speakers suspended above the dance floor and on one end there were two stacks of professional subwoofers that had to be 12 feet high each. Sounded amazing. The rest of the bar area and sitting area had smaller KP pros as well scattered throughout the floor. The first floor had its own sound system, all KP as well. Nice club. We then went across the street to the Irish pub. MMMMM Guiness. I was sitting next to Jhalk and HDBR. Lots of great audio chat again as well. Andy also told a lot of his Army reserve stories. I want Andy on my paintball team for sure. I was riding in IndyKfans Mercedes (nice ride) that night, he gave us a nice little tour of Indy. Seems like a very nice place to live and work. We all had a great day and nice evening. Was nice to meet some of you and your wives. I hope we do this again next year. If we do, Ill be there. I still have to download my pics to my PC, I will do this one of these days. JM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Oh Yeah! That SACD copy of DSoTM is going to cost me a lot of money! My CD/DVD player doesn't play SACD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mace Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 dougdrake: Speaking of Bose demo... when we took a look see at the new rear channels (or were they side channels) for the new 7.1 stuff someone asked if this was a modified 901! It was pretty funny... Yeah, that's me by the mural in the pics I posted. I'm ready for Hope! Mace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 First Id like to thank Trey & all the other folks at Klipsch. Their generosity & hospitality were well beyond my wildest expectations. Second, I wont bore you all with a reiteration of whats already been said. Lets just say I second all of it and had a great time. Treys HT sounded really good considering the lack of acoustical treatment (room still in progress). The picture quality was outstanding! I was sitting in Treys sweet spot (somehow that doesnt sound right when you write it. LOL) While I was impressed with the HT demo at Klipsch, the larger room where the DSOTM 5.1 was played, I didnt think the 5.1 DSOTM sounded all that great. Possibly it was where I was sitting (near the right rear of the room). It just didnt seem to have the impact Im used to on vinyl or SACD or the gold MSFL versions. The car chase & explosions on the movie were very impressive. And considering the whole system could be had (minus the TV) for MSRP or $3000..WOW. Unbelievable! Mace.that was me who made the are those modified 901s? comment. You dont dare use that four letter word we all love to hate in the holy land. And you have to admit, they do kind of look like miniature 901s! I too was surprised by the Aragon amps. Seemed rather smooth without any harshness. I did the speaker wire ABX test. Apparently you need at least 12 samples at a minimum for it to be considered a scientific test. And a 95% accuracy in the results. I believe the most anyone has gotten right is about 63 or 65%. And on the next test they were in the 45% range. Most people seemed to be in the 45-55% correct range. On my test I logged 17 samples. I guess I was doing pretty good until near the end. I ended up with slightly more than 50%. I have to admit, I did have trouble towards the end. The program material kept changing to fast. Even when I could consistently tell a difference for a short time, it was primarily a very slight increase in loudness that allowed me to identify one or the other. This can probably be accounted for by the difference in wire gauge. Im staying with the reasonably good OFC 12 gauge I bought from a reputable manufacturer years ago. Acoustics are far more important and the results easily recognizable by anyone. And besides. It can look really cool too. Last but not least, its amazing to see the diverse personalities, ages and backgrounds that all come together for a common interest. I have some pics to post however Im going to post them the old fashioned way. Ive been having trouble with the yahoo links lately. This first pic is at the Friday night mixer. From left to right: John Albright, Gil McDermott, Andy (HDRbuilder), Trey, & Klipsch engineer Jim? (not sure I got that right) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Judy Klipsch's wall sculpture (explaination further up this thread) in the building's entry foyer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Friday night mixer from left to right: John Matloky, Rob & Larry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Friday night mixer, Larry on the left, Steve Konopa sitting in front of my Absolut Mandarin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Range laser for measuring driver performance on the Klippel test. http://www.klippel.de/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 The whole Klippel setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 The stereo lithography machine for making prototype parts. You can see Steve & John holding parts that came from the machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 As you can see.....old still meets new. Some things are still done the old fashioned way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Rear of the Heritage listening room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Heritage room, front Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Building entry foyer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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