BigBusa Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 Hey guys ...I still haven't picked up those khorns yet but they're not going anywhere and I'm still loving the sound from my 1980 cornwalls. I just picked up a 70's or early 80's Dynaco stereo 400 amplifier. It's a masive 200wpc solid state amp that weighs about 65 lbs. I have my cd player hooked directly to the amp and am using the amps right and left level knobs for volume. It works great but affords no flexibility. I'm in the market for a 5.1 preamp/processor. I've had more than a few people tell me that this amplifier is totally unsuited to power my cornwalls. They say it's to edgey, to harsh, to this or to that. They all say go with tube amps. I know it only matters if I like the sound but am I totally missing the mythical tube boat here? What do you guys think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Boone Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 ---------------- On 6/15/2003 8:15:27 PM BigBusa wrote: It's a masive 200wpc solid state amp that weighs about 65 lbs. ---------------- I'm really enjoying my McIntosh ss amp. Have used Hafler for the past 20 years so the difference between the Mac and Hafler amp are really a treat even if they're both ss. No hurry for tubes here. Tony B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 Right -- 200wpc for Cornwalls -- they can barely take 50 without breaking up. Sell me that Hafler reject -- I could use it for my DQ's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 Yes you are missing the boat. I ran my 1980 cornwalls for almost 23 years with 160wpc SS and loved it. It sounded great. I recently bought a scott 299b (approx. 20wpc) and had Craig (NOSValves) do a rebuild. The scott just sounds better. Richer, smoother, fuller sound on all levels not to mention soundstaging which the SS lacked. Don't let anyone tell you that you will miss that bass punch if you go with tubes. There is more than ample bass for any recording you can throw at it. Maybe the scott is just a great amp and you will not have as much luck finding something as nice as what I found (on ebay) but I doubt it. If you can borrow one or find someone nearby with tubes and cornwalls to take a listen I would recommend it. This will probably be even more true with khorns. This is just my opinion of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 I'm sure vacuum tube amplification is just the right thing for Heritage Klipsch. But if you're happy with the sound of your SS Dynaco as much as I am with my SS McIntosh, then don't worry too much about it. Now, if you can come across a great deal on a vintage tube amp at the right price, well then, go for it (I'd like to someday). But in the meantime, I'm quite content listening to my favorite music on my Cornwalls, powered by my 50WPC McIntosh MC250...it's your ears and no one elses that matter; if it sounds good to you, then enjoy it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 BBusa----Back in the 70s I ran LaScalas with a Dyna 400 and a PAT-5 preamp and the sound was very good. The system had the best depth I've ever heard, sometimes the music went right out into the street. The 400 is a great amp, don't listen to these "you gotta use tubes" jaspers, they're just parroting a new orthodoxy. You've already shown your contempt for one orthodoxy by liking Klipsch better than Altec (Horn Orthodoxy being that Altec is far superior to Klipsch) so why get hung-up in another. Besides, you won't get the best in dynamics with a tube amp. Even the most efficient speakers run out of gas with tubes. I used to run my Dyna ballsout into the LSs sometimes, clipping lamps flashing. That's what it took to get realistic reproduction of some music. Your CWs, being somewhat less sensitive than CWs, will need the Big-Hog Dyna power even more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 Another fascinating post from TBrennan !! Were all wrong and he is of coarse absolutely right ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 BigBusa, Congrats on being an expectant Khorn owner. I got a pair of La Scalas a few months ago, though I had been coveting Klipsch Heritage speakers for many years. I had been using Hafler since 1980, first a DH-200, then a 220 and most recently a 9505. With the addition of La Scalas, they would crank alright, but I couldn't listen very long. Sound was edgy. Anyway, I was reading all these posts on tubes and wondering if I was missing out on anything. A little anxious about jumping into something in which I had no base of knowledge or experience, I just kept on reading posts until I ran across someone in this forum with a NOSValves 299b rebuild for sale. For me, this provided an opportunity to check out tubes without a mega investment and have the advisement, support and handholding that a newbie needs. Though I was skeptical that the improvement could be as dramatic as I found it to be, I'm really glad I changed over. Also, my wife, who would tolerate my music, on a good day, now is turning on the two channel by herself and listening! Another amazing surprise to me was the addition of ALK crossover networks. I listened for a few days doing an A/B comparison with one La Scala w/stock AA crossover and the other with ALK. There are alot of audiophile tweaks and things for results that I can well imagine that I could not hear. For example, I picked up some used interconnects which had directional arrows to have the signal flow the correct way. Puhleeeaassee. I know there must be a review somewhere in print or on the net in which a reviewer says with a straight face that the signal flowing down the cable in the correct direction makes the sound have more bloom in the mids and airiness in the highs. Now, while I will admit to being a redneck, and as a matter of fact, I did ride into town on the turnip truck, ....but not yesterday! OK, I'm not a total cynic. Maybe some people can hear those tweaks and subtle differences. I'm OK with that and happy for them. I'm a bang for the buck value kind of guy. I'd be failing you as a fellow member of this forum to not share my experience. That's what we are in this for. Of course, what sounds good to any given person is what's good. And there are only a few things in life better than satisfaction with the sound coming out of your speakers. If you're curious about tubes, hope you have a chance to audition some tubes, and maybe even on your own Khorns. If you are in my neighborhood, I'd be glad to bring over my 299b and let you listen. That would be a definite win-win. I'd love to hear some Khorns! Regards, Dee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 I wasn't saying cornwalls don't/can't sound great with SS. I said quite the opposite. My suggestion, and maybe I was a little strong in my opinion, was to find a good tube amp to listen to or borrow one and see for yourself if you like it better. If you are in the MD/DC area I would be happy to audition my 299b/cornwall combo for anyone. I was happy with my SS for 23 years! I just like the tubes better. That's all. Good luck with whatever you choose to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBusa Posted June 16, 2003 Author Share Posted June 16, 2003 I just happened to have a pretty nice fisher 200 tube amp for sale on ebay now. I brought it up from the cellar this AM for a little real world testing. It's a 60w mono amp. I simply unhooked one channel from the dynaco 400 and hooked it into this fisher 200. I popped in Everlasts "whitey ford" CD and played "ends" and then I popped in the boston horns on CD. Interesting differences but IMO not startling or really significant. The tube amp sounds smooth and non edgey like most tube users said it would. IMO that smooth and non-edgey sound equates to the music sounding slightly muffled and overly colored The highs are less obvious but (surprisingly) at the same SPL level as the stereo 400 the bass is much more powerful and punchy. The stereo 400 SS amp sounds egdey, the highs are much more pronounced and the whole sound is totally unmuffled. Compared to the 60w tube amp the soild state sound is indeed more "cutting" and precise. It does boarder on harsh but I like that precise uncolored musical sound. When the neighbors leave I'll be able to crank both amps up a bit and see what 110db or more sounds like from a tube amp. This is definately not the most scientific evaluation but an evaluation nonetheless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 NOS---You're free to think what you like. I have over 30 years experience with horn speakers and many amplifiers, what I have to say is informed by this experience. Do you think I'm a liar and that I don't believe in what I say? Some things are matters of opinion and others are matters of fact. And it's a fact that low-powered tube amps like the Scotts you like are incapable of providing the ultimate in dynamics. If you can live with that compromise fine, I now live with that compromise myself. But I'm aware of the compromise. I was at Ray's the other day listening to his Edgar Titans and he is considering going SS because he's now realizing that tubes are robbing him of the dynamics possible with his system. At the end of the day the Cyrus Brenneman tube amps were out and Kurt's gaincard clone was in and the difference in dynamics was apparent. Ray will probably go with a TriPath. We've used Kurt's TriPath on a number of horn systems and a number of us consider it a VERY fine amplifier with unsurpassed clarity and oodles of clean power. I'd take it over any tube amp I've heard and I've heard some of the best and heard them in my own system. You have a financial and emotional interest in tube amps and are perhaps less dispassionate about the subject than I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 ---------------- When the neighbors leave I'll be able to crank both amps up a bit and see what 110db or more sounds like from a tube amp. This is definately not the most scientific evaluation but an evaluation nonetheless. -------------------- This sounds like a real world test, head to head, with your own ears to discern your preference. It's hard to improve on that method. Dee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 Tom, How long you have been listening to amps and horns still relates to your opinion you may consider your opinion as the end all I'm sorry but I do not. Yes dynamics are lost with only 20 watts there is no denying that !! But also what is lost is the harshness that comes along with Any $500 SS purchase. Tell me where you going to find a $500 SS amp that will give you the sound field, warmth and generally saitsfying dynamics that you can listen to for hours on end for a $500 investment ?? Unless of coarse you able to build this wonder SS amp yourself. I won't even mention the preamp section and wonderful phono section to boot all in one neat little package for peanuts. I would think if you actually want the ultimate sound you would use tubes on the mids and tweater and SS on the bottom end. But we all know were now talking thousands of dollars in Crossovers and seperates !! Its all trade offs and there is no correct answer to what is better. What is better to me may not be to the next guy !! Its all in the ear of the beholder. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 BigBusa, Not trying to rain on your parade but is the Fisher all original ? If so there could be litterally a dozen parts out of spec and causing this muffled sound your descibing not to mention are the tubes in good shape ? I would not hold any judgemnt if the your answer is a ? to the above questions. In fact if its been stored for very long you probably just damaged it turning it on ! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 Mark, This whole business of dynamics was (and still is) interesting to me. I'm on the "never enough power" side. On the one hand music sources - LPs and CDs - are claiming ever higher dynamic range and and on the other hand people are using smaller and smaller amps! Now down in the 1W range. By my math, 60dB of DR is 1000X. So if you figure it is plus/minus 30dB from some nominal level that means +31X and -31X above and below. Listening at 5W (nom) then, you need about 150W to cover the top of the DR. Or conversely, if you have a 25W amp and play at 5W, you have 13dB of headroom. In my experience, this sounds either dead (using tubes) or harshly "pinched" (using SS). As for the efficiency of horn speakers, I believe about 6db of SPL is generall soaked up and lost to the furnishings, coverings and other room things. So, 103dB/1m/1W is probably more likely to be 97dB. If I listen at 4m and 100dB SPL, that requires nominally 8W of power. Allowing for say, 20dB headroom (and that ain't much) I am at 80W without even breathing hard. As one who has had both worlds, small power and large power on horns, I certainly preferred the big power reserve. mdeneen As you know I'm not a engineer and almost everything you say above I'm totally lost on. But I can tell you first hand that my Mark III's do not run out of steem in anyway until well over 110Db in my room Dynamics galore ! They can do this very easily and I really think they have more in them and the room just can not handle anymore. I can't explain it but I have had a 160 watt SS amp here and it could not even begin to touch the Mark III's no way no how although I'm sure there are SS amps that can but at what expense ? I believe your favorite setup is tubes on the top and SS on the bottom is it not ? Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtaylor Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 Hi BIGusa, just another opinion here. Bought my first set of Lascala's in the mid 80's. Had a Hafler 110 pre and bought and built a Hafler 220 amp to replace a sherwood receiver, wow what a difference. Headroom out the wazoo!Our listening position is 14.5 feet away from the face of the speakers and when in the mood we'd crank it up and get the pant legs moving on our jeans, no sh*t!! I'd had some old Dynaco MKII's laying around that a friend had given me for some work I'd done for him. Got them running(today I can laugh at the running condition we had them in, Would not dare to fire them up in my system in the condition they were in now). All in all they did not sound bad but they weren't good enough to replace the 220. About 1989 came across a deal on some old Mac gear. Installed the amps,mac60's, and fell in love with the sound. Then added a tube pre and the sound was that much improved. I don't know how loud you want to listen to music and I'm no golden ear but the 60 watts the mac puts out sounds better than the 110 watts the Hafler did, louder and less irritating and I really like the Hafler. Just one mans opinion. Working on really getting the Dynaco's in better shape than new so they'll whip the mac's, Can't wait, listen to your own ears,,Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 Craig----Well of course it's my opinion, that's a given. I don't know if you've been by my place and heard my rig (you've been to our club meetings, right?) but most of the fellas in the club considered it very, very good, some considered it the best they'd heard. And I was using a Denon SS receiver as a preamp feeding a DOD active crossover into a Yamaha SS amp for bass and various tube amps above 500hz for the treble with my VOT setup in the basement. Not exactly audiophile approved. As a matter of fact I'd put the Denon by itself up against your Scotts. I think they can match the Scotts in smoothness and surpass them in clarity. Yes, this is Heresey but I've come to the conclusion that with electronics there's no telling what is good and I've ditched my preconceptions about what "should" sound good. Especially after hearing Kurt's $45 gaincard clone blow away amps that cost thousands of dollars, both tube and SS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtaylor Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 Oh,BigBusa,two months ago or so I just got another pair of lascala's after several years of being without and went to fire up the mac's which had been sitting for a couple of years.Guess what,they didn't sound very good and then after 15 minutes they started motorboating. Needless to say I screwed up by not starting them with a variac or cutting the power. Did not know that was needed to reform the capacitors. Tried the dynaco's,both MKII's and the St-70's and they all ended up screwed up!What a learning experience. Just have a fun time with your stuff and don't take it too serious, remember, opinions are like a**holes, we all have one. Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 Tom As a matter of fact I'd put the Denon by itself up against your Scotts That sounds like a challenge but who is going to be the fair panel of judges and who's speakers ? I'm up to your challenge anytime . I think you have never heard a Scott like when I get done with them ! How about we use my Lascalas I'm been wanting to haul them over to Alfredo's place to shake the rafters !! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 By the way Tom what Denon do you have and what price range is it ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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