Erik Mandaville Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 I think I have become a 100% pure and devoted Klipsch owner and user! I haven't been able to go out and drive today because of medication I'm taking for that dumb bike accident yesterday, so I have spent the morning and afternoon A/B-ing the Lowthers and La Scalas. Since I finished Jeff's amps, I have been using them only with the La Scalas. With nothing else to do, I hooked up the Lowthers in order to compare them with the Klipsch. What an unexpected difference! My Lowthers just don't have that sparkle of the La Scalas. It's strange, really, and something I didn't expect. Could this be the result of an impedance mismatch? The Lowthers are 15 ohm drivers, and the Horus have 8 ohm OPTs, but I wouldn't think that would make for such a difference. Bottom line, is that the Lowthers are going to go into my workroom, where they sounded really good before. I used them with a pair of restored 6V6 PP amps, and the combination was superb! I think PP done right can be incredible, so I eagerly await Jeff's report on this new PP 2A3 he is cooking up. I know Sunnysal was very happy with his. Anyway, you all...what I difference. A little cosmetic work, and the La Scalas will be it for years, I'm sure. They are just not so easy to carry up and down stairs for woodwork repair! I have the amps next to the speakers, but CD and other sources are now about 20-25 feet away. The only linestage that didn't have parts stolen out of it for other projects was the modified Foreplay I built years ago. It is virtually silent with the Horus/Klipsch combination, and so I will use this until I finish that next preamp I have planned -- very likely using the 5687 rather than the 6SN7 in Jeff's Pantheon as originally planned. The 5687 is just such a quiet, awesome tube, and I don't want to spend weekend after weekend chasing down noises in noisy preamps. It's kind of tough to move the Lowthers out...they have been my main speakers for a long time. There is just not the lively sort of jump factor of the La Scalas, which sound fantastic with the Horus. Teacher inservice for the new school year begins tomorrow, so summer vacation winds down. The highlight of time off was most certainly the building of the Horus amps. Jeff and I discussed this back in May, and I want to publicly thank him for his faithful communication, insightful ideas, and for a great, great single-ended amplifier. This required a bit of a financial committment for me (I took out a low-interest loan from my school district credit union in order to buy the parts), and it has been and is worth every penny. This kind of performance would have been exponentially higher in terms of cost, and even those for whom Jeff built the amps have gotten a true bargain. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 Sound like one heckuva Summer! In a different way, with the recordings and all, mine was similar. I learned a lot. I've never heard Lowther's. I am sure they are great, but once you got them big 'ol horns from Hope, you just don't much care. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted August 4, 2003 Author Share Posted August 4, 2003 Dave: I heard my first pair of Klipsch (Heresies)speakers when I was in college, but couldn't afford them. Never forgot that sound, though! Lowther drivers are very good (and also very expensive). AER has something very similar to the Lowther, but it sort of an updated, new and improved version. They are supposed to have much better frequency response, transient attack, etc. This impedance mismatch may be part of what I encountered today, but I ordered 8 ohm OPTs for the Horus amps with the thought they I would most likely one day be using them with 8 ohm speakers. That's turned out to be the case. I can take advantage of an upgrade/exchange program Lowther is now offering, but I don't have hundreds of dollars right now to take advantage of it. If I did, I would order drivers with an 8 ohm impedance, or sell these I have and save up for a pair of the very similar AER drivers (they use the same mounting positions, so no cabinet modification is needed). There are also a couple of other horn cabinets that are said to be a big improvement over the Medallions, which I have actually very much enjoyed. I think all that recording you have been doing is great, and would love to hear an example of your work sometime. If you would be willing to share (or even sell!) one of your CDs, I'd be really interested. We both know I don't have the greatest digital playback ability, but this little, $42.00 KLH DVD/CD player I'm using does have pretty decent DAC. There is room for improvement here, though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 Well, I wonder more and more about material vs. equipment. I posted on one of the threads about hooking up my best friends Heresies in his new house Saturday for the first time. He has a wealth of high end (Marantz Model 5's, Dynaco Mk III's, etc) stuff, but we were just grabbing what was handy. That was a modest Marantz reciever (2230, I think) and a garage sale Pioneer CD player (15.00). Tossed in one of my own chamber music recording just for a test, and listened to the whole thing. Sounded awesome. The Heresies sounded better than they did in my house. This room is sort of octagonal with a fireplace wall of solid stone. We had the H's on that wall. May be a bit of magic there. I am glad I am only addicted to high end software, not hardware. Much easier habit to feed on my income! Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 Erik, How much did those Horus Amps cost you? - After your comments, I may not need to audition the Lowthers. Since I am using Belles, which I am told are almost identical to the La Scalas, I'll take your word for it. The sound coming out of my Belles right now, paired with the Moondogs is almost perfect for me. Every day I am amazed at how great a pair of 1970-80 speakers are compared to what is out there today. The only upgrade I can imagine right now is a pair of K-Horns, but I just don't have proper corners for them. Building a new House is an upgrade I won't be doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 Erik, Try placing 16 Ohms (or so) in parallel with the Lowthers. Then the SETs will see 8 Ohms and be happy. It's worth a try. Maybe try 18 Ohms or 22 Ohms. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted August 4, 2003 Author Share Posted August 4, 2003 Hi, Kevin: I will have to do some figuring on the total cost of my amplifiers. There was quite a bit of shipping to pay for, and per Jeff's suggestion, bought the much better Hammond power transformers. The small parts were not very much at all -- I used all metal film resistors and good quality hook up wire. The main cost was of course for the MagneQuest parts: The permalloy OPT, plate choke and grid choke. The Hammond Transformers (ordered from AES in Arizona) were part of the major expense, too. But I would be happy to give you a ball park figure on that. As far as the Lowthers, I just don't know what the deal was with them today...maybe I got the phasing wrong, or something when I hooked them up. I had just gotten used to the La Scalas, and found the Lowthers to have a sort of far-away quality to them. I'm not going to be able to work on this stuff until the weekend. Thanks, Leo for that idea to correct the impedance. I had in fact been using the Lowthers wired in parallel with the Klipsch woofer, which for some reason I have been thinking is a 16 ohm driver. Maybe I'm totally wrong about that, though! I will try your suggestion to see what happens. The Lowthers sound incredible with classical guitar, strings, etc. Both those horns in one room do take up a heck of alot of space, though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 Kevin, no, no, you need to audition some single driver speakers with your Moondogs, and you ESPECIALLY need to have me over for a listen at the time. I am very very curious about the whole single driver thing; I think Eric might have had a setup issue or something as other (Les, for example) wax enthusiastic about their single drivers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Randy, Yup, I was pretty close to pulling the trigger on those Auris II last winter, but I got involved in finishing my basement bedroom. Also the Moodogs were a major step up from my 300b amps and I'm enjoying the sound so much that I'm questioning how much improvement I'll get for 6 Grand. -- I may get the bug again this winter, and if the stock market treats me right I may go nuts and order the Auris anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike82 Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 FWIW, I had the Lamhorn (w/Aer MkI driver) in my home shop for over a year. The single driver speaker do some things exceedingly well and other things very poorly. Both Lowther and AER have introduced new drivers since I had the Lamhorns. My comparison was with the much over-hyped and overpriced ($8500.00) Beauhorn (which uses Lowther driver). For vocals, small emsemble, string quartette, solo instrumental, the single drivers are tough to beat...maybe due to lack of a x-over, BUT bass below ~55-60Hz is non-existent and you will not get a sub-woofer to integrate well--- poor integration, yes, but good integration, nope. I tried several types of subs and none had the speed to provide good coherence with the AER driver. The single drivers can also get a bit congested in complex orchestral passages. I find that better mid-range drivers on the squawker helps the sound immensely. (ALTEC, JBL, TAD) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted August 5, 2003 Author Share Posted August 5, 2003 The Lamhorn is described by a few people I've talked with as quite a bit better than the Medallion II cabinets I have. The new cone on the Lowthers involves a rolled edge on the midrange or whizzer cone, which is supposed to smooth the bump in response in the 2.5khz region (or thereabouts). The Lowthers have done very well for me for years, and I don't know what was going on the other day. The designer of the new amplifier I built also has Lamhorns with AER drivers -- says the integrate very well with the Horus amps. I have the Lowther Alnico PM2A drivers -- the older version with a non-rolled whizzer cone. Something just sounded lost and hollow with them. I normally take care with correct phasing of speaker/amp connections, so I don't think that was what caused the strange response. I totally agree with what you say about the 'congestion' with pretty complex program material -- it's physically pretty demanding on a single, nearly full-range driver. I had been considering using the Lowthers on either an open baffle or in the Oris horn, with either one of those (depending on choice)mounted on top of the La Scala bass bins. Some people use them this way, since the La Scala absolutely has the speed to keep pace with the crossoverless driver. And I very nearly lopped off the top of my La Scalas in order to implement this design. But I couldn't bring myself to do that. The more I listen to this very fast, multi-driver, fully loaded horn system, the more appreciate the undistorted and dynamic sound; moreover, it may just be more of a significant thing than I realized in the past to have drivers dedicated to specific frequency ranges. The problem, of course, is the crossover. So you didn't care for the Lamhorns, Mike? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike82 Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Eric: The Lamhorns were just one of the products I was selling in my in-home shop. For certain types of music they are great, but the trade-offs were something I wasn't going to hang with. The Loth X Stamm series is also quite nice, but unless you go for the Sub-Zero refrigerator sized Bard, you still have the bass limitations. You mentioned the Oris/Lowther. I've heard the OrisLowther in a few configurations. Yes, they will work well with the L-S or Khorn bass bin quite well. Speed and coherence is the issue. Horn loading both the bass and midrange allows for this. Some folks like the Oris/Onken system too. I thought it was OK, but it didn't knock my socks off. The best systems I've heard is the Oris/Lowther with Welborne's Maya bass bin (using 18" Macauley(sp?) driver). Man, this was to die for! Ron W. has mentioned possibly releasing plans or a kit for the Maya bass bin. Also the comparably-priced Edgarhorn Titan/Seismic Sub sounded great at the MWAF. At this level of performance component synergy is critical, which may account for your experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted August 6, 2003 Author Share Posted August 6, 2003 Thanks for this information, Mike. You are among the few people I have communicated with that have heard the Oris; and the only one I know who has also heard Welborne's Maya -- at considerably greater expense. I appreciate your posting your thoughts on this situation. Maybe I was the one who was 'off' the other day when I connected the Lowthers to the Horus. Once I finished building the Horus monoblocks, the La Scalas were what they were connected to -- since the OPT is optimized for the La Scalas 8 ohm load. I'm going to try things again with the Lowthers this weekend to see what happens. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Eric, there is someone out there that mated an Oris horn with a Klipsch bass-bin. I think they ran them crossoverless, letting the natural rolloff of the bassbin take the place of a crossover. The Lowthers, which I have never heard, have a bit of a reputation as being a bit soft sounding, with response rolling off dramatically above about 12K. The Klipsch, which I have great experience with, are generally considered "bright" and you may just be hearing the difference between the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted August 6, 2003 Author Share Posted August 6, 2003 What you say makes total sense, Randy. The PM2As I have are one of the more powerful of the 'classic' Lowther drivers, and have sounded brighter and more present to me than they did the other day. But, I had never really gone back and forth between the two speakers, and so you may have a point about just maybe hearing the difference between the two. I prefer a sharper, brighter sound, and the Horus/Klipsch combo sounds incredible to me in that respect -- much better than the Moondogs and La Scalas, which I thought wasn't too bad, either... ...until the Horus walked in on things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 ---------------- On 8/6/2003 7:46:55 PM Randy Bey wrote: The Klipsch, which I have great experience with, are generally considered "bright" and you may just be hearing the difference between the two. ---------------- Eric, This has happened to me before also. Speakers I thought I knew like the back of my hand sounded different, flat, lifeless, just plain dull after a week with cornwalls. This was many years ago but I still remember. When I decided to sell the other speakers I made sure to hide the klipsch in case the buyer wanted to hear them and compare. The crispness and clarity of klipsch heritage, whether lascalas, cornwalls, or khorns are hard to replicate within a reasonable price range. Based on reading through this thread, my guess is your ears have become adjusted to the lascalas although I've never heard the lowthers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted August 7, 2003 Author Share Posted August 7, 2003 Thanks, Gary...I bet you, as well as Randy and others who have commented on this are exactly right about the situation. I haven't been feeling completely myself for a few days, and left school early to come home and rest. As usual, I stopped by the Radio Shack right near my house to pick up some speaker spade lugs to make a new pair of speaker cables tomorrow (I'm staying home until some of this swelling and bruising get better). I also almost bought a Radio Shack speaker selector box to switch back and forth between the Klipsch and Lowthers, but it looked so cheap and felt so light, that I thought I could make a better one for 1/4 of the price. The other thing about most of those boxes, is that they are often wired internally so that the different speakers are wired in parallel with one another. I don't want that, since it changes the impedance matching with the amplifier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted August 7, 2003 Share Posted August 7, 2003 I think everyone should have some experience with full-range drivers. At least for the experience in midrange. I've never listened to Lowthers, or any higher up the chain FR's, but I've listen to a few older vintage FR stuff. 10" Whitely Stentorions, my Norelco 12's and others. Yeah FR's tend to break-up pretty easy, but if you don't crank them, they do pretty well. They do beam, but you stick your skull right in the beams. Now going from the FR 12" Norelcos, to the Cornwalls. I still like the sound of FR's, but the Cornwall's sound kick major butt over them, bigger larger sound. Some Coaxial speakers fare well too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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