Audio Flynn Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 One item that seems illogical but the press seems to review is upsampling. It is making up new data from the Redbook data; sort of. It would be nice to have someone comment on on of these standalone up samplers. Monarchy DIP now comes with an upsampling version. It would be interesting to feed one into my MSB Link II DAC. More "snake oil" or does it have possiblilities? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Some say it does. Some say it don't. Some got no opinion. The only sonic benefit I can think of would be related to the same reason it is good to upsample before digital processing. It puts various digital artifacting out into the ultrasonic. For this reason, I do any processing (de-noise, click and pop, etc.) at 24/88.2 even if the target is Redbook. Beyond that, your own assessment says it all. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted August 9, 2003 Author Share Posted August 9, 2003 Not an easy thing to audition. Most Audio stores in the Detroit area will not carry a high end CD player let alone a DAC or another type of processor. I may just have to sneak one in the house next year. She is a bit sensitive to things coming in the house; since past 10 months have brought the Chorus IIs and tube amps in. Quite a few other odds and ends as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 That mail order audio equipment outfit that advertises so much in $tereophile...can't think of the name right now as I've not rec'd a catalog in while. I think they had a "try before you buy" policy and carry some pretty esoteric stuff. That might work for you... While remaining ready to hear and learn, I remain skeptical of any additional signal paths or processes improving a sow's ear. As you know, I rip all my CD's to HDD and put my money where the action is...in the DAC. I don't think that more money can significantly improve on the DAC circuitry of the Card Deluxe. Listener tests I've conducted have proven it equal to or better than high quality standalones. While it is my opinion that it takes a long time to really evaluate top knotch audio gear, when knowledgable ears reach the same conclusions on the spot, there MUST be something to it. BTW, those tests were pretty scientific, using matched levels, synchronized playback, identical signal paths, and a remote to switch. While I am at it, Antec has a gorgeous new case out, the Minuet. It may be placed vertical or horizontal, has a very small footprint, and is designed to be very quiet. 70.00. I intend to acquire and report as soon as I can. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac_daddy Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 some will tell you that the less process there is in the processing, the better... why, for instance would you take a DAT, recorded @ 16/48 and record it to your harddrive as 24/48? I used to think that this was a good idea, because mathematically this takes the samples to the 24th place rather than the 16th. But in reality, you are adding information that never exisisted. I can see the logic in both sides of the fence, but when you go up to 24 but, you have do some sort of noise shaping to come back down to 16; but it make sense to goto the furthest place possible when editing audio... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac_daddy Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 you say the card deluxe is the supreme? what about the sek'd cards, and there is one other highend company that makes them (ella or something)..? I am not arguing, I am just asking your opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 A.F. Quite Favorably Impressed... is how I'd have to describe my experience with the AH! Njoe Tjoebs CD upsampler. I was pretty skeptical that this would be like "lifting a veil" over the music as one reviewer described the contrast between the standard and upsampled output. This upsampler is dedicated to the unit, manufactured to sit right in the chassis. I'd listened to the standard Tjoebs for a few months before ordering the upsampler. Kevin Deal said it has a 500 hour break in period. It seemed to settle in before that, but was a signicant time. My understanding of the technology is poor and so I can't share much helpful here, but I found the reviews posted on upscaleaudio.com to explain some things that made sense. Mostly I have to depend on my hearing, which is not great. For example, listening to different 2A3 tubes for the differences reported by audiophiles, my experience is that the differences at least much more subtle than discussed. Lots of times, I'm not sure if I'm hearing something different because I do or because I'm supposed to. Now, that said, for something to pass my smell test that is suspicious of marketing hype and creative ways to take my money, when I hear a distinct and pleasant difference.... then I am impressed. My electrical engineer brother in law was explaining something technical about this several months ago. And in my very lay understanding and dim memory, it sounded to me, that he said the upsampler would improve the sound by moving some kind of distortion out of the range of human hearing. Kind of like an improvement of bandwidth. I didn't really expect the difference to be worth the cost upgrade, but I was pleasantly surprised. Regards, Dee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Double post! I thougt the new IP stuff was supposed to improve the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 No, it just means the screwed up software screws everything up faster than it used too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 >that he said the upsampler would improve the sound by moving some kind of distortion out of the range of human hearing. Yes. However, you can do this in software a whole lot cheaper, the greatest expense being HD space. Super cost CD players do this via re-clocking and such, with the attendant cost. That works. Or, you can upsample ala Tjoeb, and achieve basically the same thing via a different route and on the fly. Again, $$$ at work. I've little doubt some sonic improvement may be heard, but since I've quite listening to very many acoustic CD's, I wouldn't spend money on the problem. Way too many unheard and unacquired free and cheap LP's left out there to "sample." As to the CDeluxe, IMHO, yes. Price performance of it is hard to beat, and the specs and audible performance is more in a class with 2000.00 and up CD players. As a bonus, you get record capability up to 24/96, which means you can archive your LP's (though I use 24/88.2 so I can make a CD if I wish without dither) at a sample rate that doesn't make you want to run for the LP everytime you play it. I've recorded a number of LP's through my DBX expander, then run Sound Forge click and pop on them, and they come out silent and super. The slight loss from the original is made up for by the expanded dynamic range and complete silence, as well as the knowledge the disc is not being further worn. Dave Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac_daddy Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 ok - thanks. as it would happen, I know of a CDeluxe for sale for $300. I wonder if it will be an audible sep up from my ap2496... judging from your responses, you would record that (hypothetical) DAT to WAV @ 24 bit..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 TBHWY, I really don't know of any audible benefits, theoritical or otherwise, from increasing the word length. Maybe someone else does. The movement of digital artifacting to the ultrasonic a function of increasing the Nyquist point. I wouldn't think that just going to 48k would help much. You'd want to got to at least 88.2 (even multiple) or 176.4. 300.00 for a CD would be a very good deal. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 One thing I noticed is some cd's do sound better upsampled imo,but some sounded worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Frequency response and s/n ratio, available from 16 bits sampled at 44.1ks/s are theoretical. Methods, digital and analog, that people (scientists and engineers) use to approach that theoretical limit are real, not snake oil. Upsampling and its simpler sibling oversampling are very valid approaches. There will be implementations that are garbage .. made only to make a few quick bucks, so as is always the case, one must judge a vendor carefully. I am very happy with Denon's implementation of 20 bit 8x oversampling. I like even more, Philips' 24 Bit 192Ks/s upsampling, although it shows up problems elsewhere in my system. After all the digital math, there are the output amps. Usually, those are op-amps, which aren't a real good idea. Class A output amps are better (they may be class A op-amps), and some designers use tubes which, well implemented, can be excellent. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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