SACD?... DVD-A?...Both?...Neither?

[kjohnsonhp]

Has anyone tried the Pioneer 563 Universal player which I believe is under $200 at Best Buy, etc. Some are giving it a spin with the knowledge you can return it within 30 days. The Outlaw bass management box is recommended.

I think universal players will be common and affordable. I'm not sure if either format will replace CD any time soon but maybe they will be like the old LaserDisc video format which had a niche.

15 Dylan albums are coming out this month and 5 are multi-channel. Slowly maybe we will see nice releases of the major artists.

I think multi-channel music would get a boost if new artists would record an album with 5.1 in mind vs us hearing remixes of our old 2-channel favs.

Who knows where all this is going. I bought a $150 5-disc SACD player because there seems to be more SACD's of interest and I can play the few DVD-A's I came across in DTS on my DVD-V player.

In a time when HiRez is being released it's interested to see the masses line-up behind LowRez mp3.

Want to buy some QUADROPHONIC lps?

[Mallette]

>I enjoy LPs, but they cannot compare to SACD. You won't find a single solitary engineer who will say he can hear the difference between a studio master tape and an SACD made from it.

Man, I'd love to hear that supported. Since I've no experience with SACD, I can't really dispute, but my guts and reports from other folks seem to suggest that's pretty unlikely.

Anyway, bear in mind that at this point NEW LP releases outsell DVD-A and SACD combined by 2 to 1. That's beyond debate and says more than anything else in the thread.

Dave

[SCOOTERDOG]

I have been into DVD Audio for about 2 years now and love the format. I got into it before I had a DVD A machine. I bought ELP BSS and explored the Dolby Digital surround mix on the disc. I was so impressed I decided to buy a DVD A player. Best move I ever made. I have listen to several SACD disc's and thought they sounded very good but not quite as good as the DVD A. The advantages between the two formats are preety widely known by now. SACD can be played back on most CD players and you get standard CD quality sound. Slap it into a SACD player and you get Hi Res stereo or surround from a hybrid disc. DVD A plays only on DVD machines...All DVD machines. If you don't have the DVD A option you can still enjoy DD or DTS tracks wich are better then any regular CD. So those that want to explore can still benefit and enjoy surround sound in the DD or DTS format. but until now they could only be played back on a DVD player.

But wait, the cat is out of the bag, read below:

September 3, 2003

Warner Reportedly Tells Retailers Dual Disc DVD-Audio/CD Will Be Shipping In 12/03

Written By Jerry Del Colliano

A source inside a large record label tells AudioRevolution.com that WEA (Warner Brothers, Elektra and Atlantic Records) consultant David Dorn recently met with independent record retailers in New York to talk about the future of prerecorded media. According to sources, Dorn is purported to have told the group of retailers that WEA plans to ship a significant number of DVD-Audio only titles this fall with working Dual Disc CD-DVD-Audio discs being widely available as soon as December 2003. Dorn repeatedly refused to either confirm or deny the story Wednesday when he was reached during a business trip to New York. Other WEA executives were contacted, but they have not returned phone calls prior to publication.

At the meeting with the indy retailers, Dorn, according to sources, supposedly went on to say that the Dual Discs would be supported by all five of the major labels. This is ironic to some in the industry considering the amount of effort that Sony has put into its competing SACD format. A Sony consultant, denied parts of the rumor but like most all other music industry executives interviewed, said that ALL labels are looking at the compelling possibilities of a DVD-Audio/CD disc. While the audio quality differences between a pure DSD recording on SACD and an MLP encoded DVD-Audio title can be left for the audiophiles to discuss, the fact that DVD-Audio offers high resolution audio (stereo, high-res surround and default surround) as well as limited video playback on a growing number of DVD-Video, DVD-Audio and video game machines (Xbox and PSII) is a marketing advantage that the major labels might be seeking to use to resuscitate the sales of prerecorded music on a physical disc.

When the CD was invented it was a vastly better value and far more convenient that an LP. DVD-Audio and SACD have had a much harder time in the marketplace versus the most powerful AV format of all time - DVD-Video. Consumers have voted with their wallets saying that they will more often than not spend a few more dollars than the price of a CD in order to get a full feature, surround sound movie or feature concert on DVD-Video. WEA is betting big that if they up the ante for what a consumer gets for his or her $15 at Tower, Amazon.com or indy music retailer, that consumers will consider buying physically prerecorded (AKA: non-downloaded) music again. Another advantage is that consumers will develop, by default, their own collection of music on DVD-Audio with every Dual Disc sold. When more and more car makers add surround sound DVD-Audio systems (like Acura) to their models and more people get 5.1 home theaters installed into their homes, these consumer collections of high resolution surround sound music will be of even more value.

What is yet to be seen is whether WEA has actually figured out a way to make the flip disc work so that it can be called an actual DVD. As of a few months ago, their attempts at a flip disc had high failure rates mainly because the discs are physically too thick to fit in car audio players. Much effort has been going into finding a way to make these discs work. One sample disc acquired by AudioRevolution.com this summer worked on some, but not all of the systems we tested. An executive at a major label interviewed for this story says he has in his possession a more modern disc and it works everywhere he tested.

The simple fact is, WEA really could use their disc to be approved by the DVD Forum so it can in fact be an official DVD. That news has yet to be announced which makes December sound like a potentially unrealistic estimate for when these discs will be in the stores from all five labels. Another element that would make December an unlikely date for a full launch is the manufacturing changes that would need to be completed in order to make millions of these new discs.

That brings us to Sony who has been loosely rumored to be looking at DVD-Audio for some time however Sony doesnt give up easily with formats that they are involved with. Their policy hurt them with their support of Beta decades ago and was of limited success more recently with Mini Disc (especially in Japan).

If the speculation is true and WEA can get their Dual Disc approved and all of the other majors jump on board with significant support for the Dual Disc, Sony could jump aboard too, albeit reluctantly. For now they are understandably laying low like the rest of the labels however it wouldnt be impossible to remaster their DSD versions of hundreds of records into PCM stereo and surround titles. In fact, if Sony jumped on board, they might be the biggest label for the discs with converted titles.

With downloaded music picking up steam with the Gen Y and more price conscious customers, the music industry needs a high resolution physical disc to sell badly. If a feature laden DVD-Audio flip is the answer, people will consider buying music on a format that is based more on 21 century technology. One thing that record execs and consumers agree on is the fact that the CD, at $16 per disc, is at the end of a very successful run and that something needs to replace it.

I'm so pleased

Scooterdog

[kjohnsonhp]

There are magazine articles comparing the PETER GABRIEL SACD to LP. I've also read comparisions of the QUEEN DVD-A to LP. The lps are are new release improved audiophile lps--not the original version.

The reviews seem to think they are close. I recall the QUEEN lp beat the DVD-A and PETER GABRIEL LP vs SACD seemed to say each had their Pros/cons --or maybe I got tired of reading the long analysis.

I don't think either said the new digital formats were notably better than the new lp release of the same album.

[artto]

The fact is most new 'LP releases' are not aimed at the audio, or even the 'music' markets. It's main 'growth' is dah rappin' scratchin' boom boom DJ market.

[artto]

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On 9/10/2003 11:21:30 PM SCOOTERDOG wrote:

The advantages between the two formats are preety widely known by now. SACD can be played back on most CD players and you get standard CD quality sound. Slap it into a SACD player and you get Hi Res stereo or surround from a hybrid disc.

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The other way around my friend. No SACD (DSD format) will play on any CD player. It must be a hybrid disc that has a CD layer on it. And not all SACD are hybrid or multichannel. WATCH THE LABEL for what you're buying!

[mobile homeless]

This isnt true. Those are mostly used records.

[artto]

Wrong again Kelly. When was the last time you were in a mastering studio? The ones that have cutting lathes will tell you how many of these disks they cut....... mostly for the DJ market, at very high proft, and how they smile all the way to the bank (albeit scratching their heads). And a visit to someplace like Tower Records will immediately show that most of the recordings available are for the 'dance' & scratch crowd. Not for music lovers or audiophiles.

[mace]

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On 9/10/2003 5:45:56 PM artto wrote:

Mace, try Tower Records & Telarc. Tower has over 400 titles

http://music.towerrecords.com/towermusic?n=0&csn=3&csr=1&dym=1&att=All_Music+SACD%20+&cs=SACD

http://www.telarc.com

On Journey's Greatest Hits, 'Don't Stop Believin' sounds great. Just a bit of tape hiss from the analogue master. The other tracks were obviously recorded by other studios/engineers & don't sound nearly as good (ear bleed at times? ).

Also be aware that many of these players seem to have problems playing CDR & CDRW

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Thanks for the tower records tip!

I've got that same Journey CD. Some tracks sound plain crappy IMHO, like "Any Way You Want It". I suppose it was just how the original was mixed/mastered or something. Other tracks sound pretty good (can't think of titles right now) to me. A friend of mine had a Journey Redbook CD and we did an A/B (blind for him) on the same song: SACD vs. Redbook (all other things equal). His initial impression was the Redbook sounded better... go figure! He said it had less hiss. I've finally got a couple of discs both Redbook and SACD (Herbie Hancock's Headhunters, Joe Satriani's Strang Beautiful Music) and I'm gonna do some direct comparisons one of these days. My initial impression is that I didn't find the difference as stark as what I thought it would be.

I haven't had any trouble with CD-R in my SACD player (burnt at 1X with old Yamaha 4x4x16 burner with iTunes and Toast on Mac) . I haven't tried CD-RW yet.

Out,

Mace

[No Disc]

Chris,

HDCD is not really a format, but rather a encoding algorithm designed to get true 20-bit audio from an older 16-bit format. It's rather quite brilliant and the engineers should be commended for their accomplishment. Micosoft bought the rights for this "format."

If you already have a Cd player, consider trading up to a HDCD compatible player. Several players exist.

If the mastering process was 20 bit or above, you will hear a difference on the HDCD discs. The encoding is totally benign, and will have no adverse effect in standard players.

I have SACD and HDCD and for me, I enjoy both the same.

- tb

>Oh joy. Just what was needed, another format to consider. This is starting to drive me nuts.

Chris

[BlueMonk]

I could never figure out which was better since the the source material seems to make the most difference to me. So I went with the cheap($179) Pioneer until the dust settles. No, it probably isn't as good as the Denon or others but I sure haven't had any remorse over the purchase. It was a inexpensive way for me to enjoy my system even more.