SACD?... DVD-A?...Both?...Neither?

[ChrisK]

I had ordered a SACD (Sony ES222...) player/changer last week and then canceled it Friday because I'm beginning to get very confused. After ordering it, I began hearing how even Sony is now going to make titles available on DVD-A. Are they giving up on SACD? This weekend I played golf with an executive from Universal Music Group and posed a few format questions to him. In short he said that vinyl is growing, SACD is a big question mark, and DVD-A seems ready to catch on. He wasn't sure if DVD-A would end up 2-sided, hybrid or what. But we all agreed Sony definitely needs help in the format sales dept. Beta? 8mm? Mini-Disc? Is SACD the next failure?

A couple of questions -

1. How do you think this format "war" will shake out?

2. Is there a big difference in sound quality between the two?

3. Does anyone know of any "universal" player/changers? That is, a changer (5-10 disc) that will play CD, SACD, and DVD-A? I have seen the new Sony single disc unit that plays all the formats, but no multi-disc.

Thanks,

Chris

[whell]

I've been trying to follow this topic myself, and at the end of the day, I ended up back in vinyl! I still hold out hope for one of the digital formats, but its just too bloody early to tell which way the pendulum is going to swing.

As far as players, I know of NO universal changers. A couple of manufacturers, including Marantz, have released players that are fluent in all formats, but they are quite pricey.

[AndyKubicki]

I could have sworn I've seen players that do multi formats and I read somewhere that that is the shape of things to come. I just took it for granted that by the time I'm ready for a digital playback purchase that it will do at least Redbook, SACD and DVDa. But don't toss that TT yet. It will take forever to get what you want, which is kinda why I like the idea of multi format players, that way you don't have to wait for releases as long. Notice that my assumption is that there is not enough difference between DVDa and SACD to make one more desireable than the other.

[MrMcGoo]

Format standards are changeing for SACD as SACD2 is on its way. SACD2 will add video capability to SACD.

Neither standard is inherently superior IMO. Either standad can produce superior sound, but the quality varies enourmously from one recording to another. Most recordings are re-mixes.

Both may survive due to universal players.

Bill

[maxg]

Yup - my vote is that if you are going to follow the new digital formats then you have to get a universal player (I think Pioneer do one, and Denon and there is a cheap one from Apex or something(?))

Frankly I played with SACD a lot on a Sony NS900 and was ultimately unimpressed. A lot of the problem may have lain with the player but I feel that the recordings themselves were not nearly as good as they should have been.

I am another of those that has returned to vinyl and given up on digital. I keep a CD/DVD player for very ocasional use that cost about 70 bucks but other than that I am vinyl only till I change my mind (see my sig).

It does seem that newer redbook CD's are getting better. Not at all sure the newer formats are worth the effort although I am still yet to hear DVDa.

[mobile homeless]

I dont know what your musical taste is but given your vinyl system, I would probably elect to wait out the format a bit longer. Invest in a quality redbook player if you want ie Tjoeb/Rega etc. I still like my original Planet for CD (and now, the cheap SACD Philips SA963 option gets all sorts of questionable comments in Hi-Rez/digital asylum).

I think the SACD titles are still underwhelming. And your vinyl situation is good enough to continue on that track. A used original Rega at $350 is a great option still. Do you HAVE to have a multi-disc player? I just havent liked the way they sound on the whole. This for your main player?

kh

ps- never heard back on the Cary/AES comments in that other thread. So many SET options

[avman]

i have been happy w/most of the sacd's i have,although the format can't help a bad master.only one of the sacd's i have sound bad,and not THAT bad,just not a clean master,imo.i also have had fun w/multi-channel sacds.sacd generally has a very good signal-to-noise ratio.full-range floorstanders are a MUST for 2-ch.sacd.

as far as the 'format war' i've side w/sacd because:

i work for a sony dealer.

it is the only digital format that does not use pulse code modulation,and the associated 'problems'that can come with that.

sony and their labels have alot of artists signed.

avman.

[ChrisK]

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On 9/10/2003 3:30:26 AM mobile homeless wrote:

I dont know what your musical taste is but given your vinyl system, I would probably elect to wait out the format a bit longer. Invest in a quality redbook player if you want ie Tjoeb/Rega etc. I still like my original Planet for CD (and now, the cheap SACD Philips SA963 option gets all sorts of questionable comments in Hi-Rez/digital asylum).

I think the SACD titles are still underwhelming. And your vinyl situation is good enough to continue on that track. A used original Rega at $350 is a great option still. Do you HAVE to have a multi-disc player? I just havent liked the way they sound on the whole. This for your main player?

kh

ps- never heard back on the Cary/AES comments in that other thread. So many SET options

----------------

Kelly,

My Arcam cd changer is pretty darn good. A good friend brought over his Theta player/dac rig some time ago and after much listening we both agreed the difference was very, very minimal. Although there WAS a difference, I'm willing to give up the 5% or less sound improvement to keep a changer in my system. If I was to get a dedicated player only, it would definitely be a Rega. Two of the audio opinions I respect most agree on it's excellent performance. You and Dr. Bruce Edgar.

I do have to say that more than a few people I respect opinion wise, have said that SACD sounds very, very good. I look forward to the availability of a mid-highend universal changer. But rest assured, I will never give up my vinyl.

On the amp front, I have had such a great experience with Cary (Dennis and Kirk), I feel very loyal to them and trust that their products are first rate. Quite a few people extoll the virtues of many other brands. Wright Sound, Doc B., Decware, etc., etc. are for sure great products. Maybe it's like comparing BMW, Porsche, Mercedes Benz, Honda, and Toyota automobiles (of which I've owned all except Porsche...sigh). There's a lot to chose from and you're probably going to get your moneys worth from just about anything in their product lines. You just have to chose what will work best for you.

Regards,

Chris

[Mallette]

I generally agree with all said in this thread with regards to these formats. However, one important issue has not been mooted.

If SACD becomes dominant, DVD-A will not disappear. However, the reverse is not true unless something changes.

Why? Because Mom and Pop's like me can afford to make DVD's, but cannot afford to make and issue SACD.

Dave

[dgb]

Personally I've been very happy with HDCD, the encoded disks sound very nice and there are thousands of titles available and they are all retro compatable. HDCD doesn't get much press, but there are a lot of titles coming out.

[ChrisK]

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On 9/10/2003 9:46:25 AM dgb wrote:

Personally I've been very happy with HDCD, the encoded disks sound very nice and there are thousands of titles available and they are all retro compatable. HDCD doesn't get much press, but there are a lot of titles coming out.

----------------

Oh joy. Just what was needed, another format to consider. This is starting to drive me nuts.

Chris

[joshnich]

I love SACD. No it's not vinyl - but its pretty close. And you dont have to vacuum, brush, buy sleeves, covers , or turn and change records, etc etc. Yes there is a romance to the vinyl process that I think all vinyl lovers (including me) enjoy. But sometimes (most of the time) I like putting on a group of CDs and going on about my business with the music blasting.

Being unsure about the future I did not go hog wild on a changer but opted for what I felt was the best for the most reasonable cost, the Sony scd222es which is also a fine Redbook unit. It will never replace vinyl for critical listening but for everyday enjoyment and ease of use it's hard to beat!

Josh

[mace]

I went with SACD (see sig). Why? I mostly own CD's and the SACD player does a fine job with Redbook CD's to my ears. Some would say the SACD players play Redbook as well as a Planet, but I've not had the chance to compare.

Edit: The selection of SACD's is paltry. A search two days ago on Amazon yielded 115 titles. Pretty pathetic. I somehow doubt that SACD's will ever catch on. I almost hate buying them unless they are hybrid since I cannot make copies for the car or the other CD-players in the house.

What physical reason would be the cause of a CD changer sounding worse than a single disc player? I'm just curious.

Regards,

Mace

Blind A-B-X tests for all!

[artto]

Mace, try Tower Records & Telarc. Tower has over 400 titles

http://music.towerrecords.com/towermusic?n=0&csn=3&csr=1&dym=1&att=All_Music+SACD%20+&cs=SACD

http://www.telarc.com

I agree with Dave that the biggest threat to SACD is that the rest of us can't get involved with using it for recording. Too expensive for small studios to get involved with. Other than that, I prefer the format over DVD-A. It's a very different digital format that is much more analogue-like than PCM. It has better dynamic range (lower noise). And it's one bit sampling rate is easily convertible (evenly divisible into any number) to any sampling rate in the future (the big mistake of CD). I like what I'm hearing from the format but as with anything else, it will also expose the weak points of a recording (especially PCM and analogue transfers). Miles Davis 'Kind of Blue' (1959) for example, excellent recording, sound stage/imaging is superb, but you will cleary hear the 'spit' from Cannonball Adderley's alto sax being too close to the mic on 'So What'. On Journey's Greatest Hits, 'Don't Stop Believin' sounds great. Just a bit of tape hiss from the analogue master. The other tracks were obviously recorded by other studios/engineers & don't sound nearly as good (ear bleed at times? ).

Another point to consider is that the original Telarc Soundstream recordings for CD were recorded at 50KHz (not 44.1) which provided extended high frequency response & increased detail. 50Khz divides evenly into the new DSD format & provides better conversion to SACD than standard PCM format can. This might also explain why some people found Telarc's CD recordings 'edgy'. I myself have had difficulty (disaster is more like it) trying to produce quality CD recordings downsampled from higher frequencies (ie: 48Khz) to 44.1 Redbook standard for CD.

Bottom line: the format war is pissing me off too.

Also be aware that many of these players seem to have problems playing CDR & CDRW

[Parrot]

SACD is far outselling DVD-A, don't let anybody kid ya. There is a lot of misinformation on the DVD-A side. Sometimes they'll list DVD music titles as DVD-A sales, stuff like that.

Sony is not going to make DVD-A. As a matter of fact, only one major company is stubbornly supporting DVD-A, and that is AOL Time Warner. Considering they have lost money on every title they've put out so far, I wouldn't be betting the farm on DVD-A. Some time or other they'll put pride aside and call it quits on the format, and it'll go the way of DVDi and Divx.

I enjoy LPs, but they cannot compare to SACD. You won't find a single solitary engineer who will say he can hear the difference between a studio master tape and an SACD made from it. Ever read of an engineer who said he couldn't tell the difference between an LP and its master tape?

[Fish]

I've listened to both formats since they became available,both are good,neither is superior imo.DVD-A has good points,sacd has good points.I have sacd's that are less than perfect and dvd-a less than perfect,but the good ones are really good.If Sony has tought us one thing,they are very hard headed,I don't think you'll see dvd-a on their players anytime soon.

[Papertester]

It seems that most high end manafacturers have combi (DVD DVDA SACD)in the thousand-plus price ranges. Also Marantz Sony Dennon, Pioneer have some for around a thousand bucks. It seems the Pioneers DV-45A with a MSRP of $799. and a street price of around 350-400 would be the cheapest model to get into.

I seem to have read a favorable review somewhere. By this time next year the predictions are that prices will be in the $200 range. Reasonable enough to audition. I have a Toshiba DVDA player I have enjoyed some of the releases. As with any format it's your personal taste that counts

Ron

[avman]

hey! i'm on my 2nd dvd/sacd player!

the upgrade(for MY application)from the 650v to the 685v is progressive scan(if you have a GOOD display p.s. is WAY over emphasized as a benefit)and..DA-DA..IMPROVED BASS MANAGEMENT FOR MULTI-CHANNEL SACD'S)

the signal sent to my sub(rsw-15)previously was really poor-now i have a +/- 10 dB adjustment available which really helps!

avman.

btw-this combi-unit costs about $250

you guys who are paying MUCH more must know something i don't-please inlighten me

av.

[jdm56]

Chris,

I would advise waiting 'till you can get a universal changer, if you just have to have a changer. I personally prefer SACD, but it is way too early to count DVD-A out. True, SACD has the edge now, but if the DVD-A camp makes a big push into the car audio market, that could swing things around their way. Plus, there are a lot more DVD-A players available now than there are SACD players. (They're mostly pretty cheaply built, but they are available.)

As for sound, I don't think either one has a meaningful advantage over the other.

One real-world quirk of DVD-A is the necessity to have a video monitor hooked up in order to navigate the disc. This may not apply to all discs or players, though.

In a nutshell, both can sound fabulous, but then again so can CD.

One more caveat that applies to all multi-channel formats: the producers can and do totally destroy the illusion of hearing live music, by placing voices and instruments in the surround channels. So whichever route you go, you have to be very careful about which SACD and/or DVD-A titles you shell your money out for.

[kjohnsonhp]

Has anyone tried the Pioneer 563 Universal player which I believe is under $200 at Best Buy, etc. Some are giving it a spin with the knowledge you can return it within 30 days. The Outlaw bass management box is recommended.

I think universal players will be common and affordable. I'm not sure if either format will replace CD any time soon but maybe they will be like the old LaserDisc video format which had a niche.

15 Dylan albums are coming out this month and 5 are multi-channel. Slowly maybe we will see nice releases of the major artists.

I think multi-channel music would get a boost if new artists would record an album with 5.1 in mind vs us hearing remixes of our old 2-channel favs.

Who knows where all this is going. I bought a $150 5-disc SACD player because there seems to be more SACD's of interest and I can play the few DVD-A's I came across in DTS on my DVD-V player.

In a time when HiRez is being released it's interested to see the masses line-up behind LowRez mp3.

Want to buy some QUADROPHONIC lps?