dougdrake Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 Henry - Priceless. LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 My wire war story: I ran copper speaker cables, like they sell at Home Depot, for over a decade. Compared to the thin stuff, with ultra-sensitive big ole horns, like the Klipsch Cornwalls, I certainly noticed a different difference; something on the order of a 1 or a 2, where Stereophile magazine recommended speakers are 8s, 9s and 10s. I finally upgraded to basic Monster cable, found at Tweeter/Sound Advice, and again noticed a different difference. A few years ago, I invested in another set of the same Monster cable, but with better terminal connections, in order to experiment with running a double set of wires from speaker to amp. Again, I noticed a pleasing different difference for the money invested. So maybe this was simply what the God of Monster Amplifiers, Nelson Pass, says: that the better connection is what really matters. Last year, I was asked to review Coincident Technologys thick gray rattlesnakes, the CST 1 loudspeaker cables from Israel Blume in Canada, for EnjoyTheMusic.com. He then cancelled the request (I didnt drool over his Triumph Signature loudspeakers), but I instantly loved the smooth feeling, increased detail and bargain price of his cables after only one listen with my flea-powered tube Bottlehead 2A3 Paramour amplifiers - and kept them. Although several times more expensive, they too made a different difference, especially with Klipschs big ole corner horn, the classic Khorn. Now these fat babies have spades as wide as your thumb, which works great with the Paramours big stud gold posts so that may one reason for the different difference. I love em. They are a low cost improvement to my home movie and music reproduction system. I know the theory and I know the practice. I like the Coincident CST 1 rattlesnake cables 1s over the Monster cable. Who knew Tom Brennen was so cantankerous? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 Thanks John W. for the excellent calculations. I was too lazy to do them myself. However without caluculations one can realize that wire loses in the loop are miniscule compared to the dominance of the voice coil resistance. The same is going to be true of inductance and capacitance. It would take a bit more math, but it can be done. The info on the link is good to the extent it states some of it is snake oil. But there is more snake oil than admitted to. Capacitance causes the amp to peak? Gee the miminal capacitance of cables just are not enough to do that, or much of anything. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 ---------------- On 11/5/2003 7:57:25 AM hwatkins wrote: I am finally happy with my sound..... ---------------- then you have failed, alas, you have failed. failed... failed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 It is clear that some of you just plain ain't "tweakers". I say tweak away; the physics involved will prove themselves out (or not). Speaking of zip cord, I would rather be SYSTEM-LESS than use zip cord on it. Just the thought gives me the willies. If I was going to use zip cord, I might as well buy cheap Japanese consumer electronics and dump the good stuff. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 "If I was going to use zip cord, I might as well buy cheap Japanese consumer electronics and dump the good stuff." D-Man, Just give us folks on the forum first shot before you put it on eBay. OK? Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted November 8, 2003 Share Posted November 8, 2003 ---------------- On 11/7/2003 10:11:34 PM D-MAN wrote: It is clear that some of you just plain ain't "tweakers". ---------------- Thank Goodness for that! I can't afford to be a "tweaker". So where's the "big" win here? If you can find it then tell me. It took me 10 minutes to run the plot below. It took me 10 minutes to prove to myself that reactance, in this case inductive, in 28' of 16AWG isn't noticable until I start getting to about 24kHz AND I have to go to 280,000Hz to get a 2x increase in the impedance. It took me 10 minutes to conclude that ALL the hype in cables is BULLSH*T! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted November 8, 2003 Share Posted November 8, 2003 In 1999, Hi Fi News did an extensive analysis of a couple dozen cables, measuring and plotting their responses to a variety of test signals. The results took three months (July, August and September) to present. It makes for very, very interesting reading. To summarize, what I took away from the analysis was that when measured under laboratory conditions using state of the art measuring devices looking at cable performance under conditions covering low power, high power, low frequency, high frequency, square wave, complex wave, simple loading (flat DC resistance on load) to complex loading (highly reactive load), most cable under most conditions gave almost identical results. Looking at the images of the 'scopes printed in the magazine, at the resolution and scale the published images had, there was no dicernable difference among most of the results displayed. However, it did make clear that if the design and construction of the cable were different enough, the results were clearly different. The high frequency sqare wave performance of the Goertz cable, for example, was so different than every other cable that you could immediately pick the scope image out of all those presented. The Goertz cable's rise time was orders of magnitude, uh, "better" (faster) than every other cable. Good, I think... however, the Goertz also had an initial overshoot (due to capacitive characteristics of their flat ribbon sandwich construction?) and at least one cycle of ringing. Looking at the performance of the Goertz Ml2, the Nordost Blue Heaven and the Audioquest Indigo there were obvious measureable differences in a variety of tests - not suprizing, given the vastly different designs of these cables. I don't doubt that changing cables can, depending upon the cables in question and the speakers to which they are connected, make a difference that is audible, measurable and repeatable. I don't think you can state that one is more better than another - they are different. The slower rise time, lack of overshoot and ringing of the Nordost might sound better to me when I'm listening to violins, while you might find the faster rise time and initial overshoot of the Goertz makes your system sound more like what you hear in a live performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted November 8, 2003 Share Posted November 8, 2003 ---------------- On 11/4/2003 12:12:38 AM Ray Garrison wrote: Ever notice how almost EVERY tweek someone tries makes things sound differently BETTER? Things never sound differently WORSE... Ray, I've tried many tweaks that have failed to sound better, I just don't talk about most of them. But,I understand what your saying. It's hard to admit defeat even if it is to ourselfs. Sometimes we even convince ourselfs that the not so obvious tweaks are better, to only find out down the road that they arn't. That's why I always like a few more ears in the room to A/B these tweaks. If it wasn't for ebay I would be out a lot of money. I can usually get my money back by selling the parts there. I chalk up the wasted time a learning experiance and fun. As far as speaker wire goes, I use Carol Command Studio Grade. It has pure silver plating over ETP copper. I use it for the internal wiring in all my speakers and for all my runs to the amp. Can I hear an improvement? Beats me! I'm not going there. I just figure that I'm getting the best of both worlds by using silver and copper. I used to buy this wire from parts express at a reasonable price. They don't sell it any more and I need to find a new source or subsitute. JW, I earned my nick name (Q-Man) durning my old football days. After reading all your post and emails to me I'm beginning to think that we should start calling you (Plot-Man)or P-Man for short. But P-Man doesn't conjer up a very postive image . G-Man for graft sounds better. Seriously though, thanks for your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Thanks Steve AragonTech. I lifted this from your suggestion!!! From Audioholics.com Q: Who really makes cables, and who just puts their logo on them? A: Very few cable vendors, especially the exotic brands, manufacturer their own cables. Most of them buy large reels of wire from China and either repackage them locally or have them labeled with their Logo overseas. In fact we usually receive 2-3 emails/week from overseas vendors wanting to manufacturer and brand Audioholics.com cables for us. What do you think, good idea ? Q: Why is there so much confusion about cables? A: I suspect misinformation and low consumer awareness are the key reasons. Of course glowing subjective reviews and endorsements in audio publications dont help this either. Many exotic cable vendors know the average consumer/audiophile has little or no background in electronics, yet they somehow have to justify why their products cost so much and why the consumer/audiophile needs them. So with that, the exotic cable vendor concocts marketing literature, usually in the form of a story, based on half engineering truths or misapplied engineering principles to lure you in. They often reject the proven fundamental truths that govern these principles and claim established associated theories cannot be verified through measurements or engineering certainties, but instead only through hearing. What they fail to provide however is repeatable statistical data and correlation that their cables do sound better for the reasons they tout. They often go one step further and claim it can take weeks for the consumer to hear the benefits of their cables since they require a break in period. In reality cable break in is another misnomer, which I suspect is used to convince the customer to keep the cables beyond the retailers return policy. In addition, statistically, the longer the customer keeps a product the less likely they are to return it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Thanks Steve AragonTech. I lifted this from your suggestion!!! From Audioholics.com Q: Who really makes cables, and who just puts their logo on them? A: Very few cable vendors, especially the exotic brands, manufacturer their own cables. Most of them buy large reels of wire from China and either repackage them locally or have them labeled with their Logo overseas. In fact we usually receive 2-3 emails/week from overseas vendors wanting to manufacturer and brand Audioholics.com cables for us. What do you think, good idea ? Q: Why is there so much confusion about cables? A: I suspect misinformation and low consumer awareness are the key reasons. Of course glowing subjective reviews and endorsements in audio publications dont help this either. Many exotic cable vendors know the average consumer/audiophile has little or no background in electronics, yet they somehow have to justify why their products cost so much and why the consumer/audiophile needs them. So with that, the exotic cable vendor concocts marketing literature, usually in the form of a story, based on half engineering truths or misapplied engineering principles to lure you in. They often reject the proven fundamental truths that govern these principles and claim established associated theories cannot be verified through measurements or engineering certainties, but instead only through hearing. What they fail to provide however is repeatable statistical data and correlation that their cables do sound better for the reasons they tout. They often go one step further and claim it can take weeks for the consumer to hear the benefits of their cables since they require a break in period. In reality cable break in is another misnomer, which I suspect is used to convince the customer to keep the cables beyond the retailers return policy. In addition, statistically, the longer the customer keeps a product the less likely they are to return it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hwatkins Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 ---------------- On 11/7/2003 9:42:39 PM John Warren wrote: ---------------- On 11/5/2003 7:57:25 AM hwatkins wrote: I am finally happy with my sound..... ---------------- then you have failed, alas, you have failed. failed... failed... ---------------- Damn you John Warren... I took your slam and told myself I would prove you wrong, so I listened to Pink Floyd DSOM followed by LOTR constantly for three days (without sleep) on my #2AWG wired Heresys. My critically attuned ear (I found long ago that my ear was far superior to any measuring equipment) in hour 36 began to notice a 3db spike at 1133Hz. By the end of the three days it had become so annoying that I couldn't take it anymore. I have completely dissasembled my superior wiring plan and will be diligently searching out the flaw. I may be without music for several months, but that isn't the point - perfection is. Thank goodness, I at least know it isn't my HeathKit, cold soldered amplifier that I built when I was 16. Or could I be missing something here? That will have to wait until this problem is solved.... For now and ever - never satisfied. Thanks John for turning my life around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrPyro Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 I get a good chuckle out of the Physics 101 lecture and the "I can hear a difference, but can't measure it" arguments. Being "educated" as an engineer, albeit a mechanical engineer I have learned a few things. First, the V=IR and all of the other equations mentioned are MODELS. Models are a mathematical description used to predict/represent a physical phenomena within a certain bound or regime. They were usually developed from observing a physical phenomena. The electrons in the wire don't have a clue about these equations and could careless about them. Yes, they can be useful tools to model a physical phenomena, but its not the end all, do all equation. Also, if you have taken a graduate level class in engineering/physics (or any science class) you will learn that what you learned in Physics 101/Chemistry 101/etc is a vast over simplification on the actual process which is occurring. In other words, using those equations requires one to makes some major assumptions and simplifications. I'll use an example from my graduate work.... Take your automobile, when you burn the fuel in the engine Chemistry 101 would describe the process as Fuel + O2 (+N2) ==> CO2 + H20 (+N2). However, if reality behaved this way we wouldn't need to worry about smog, pollution, NOx, diesel particulate, etc. All I'm suggesting is that when someone goes touting these equations is that they either understand they are just models and the system is much more complicated then just these equations. More often the not, what we experience when we listen to our systems is a coupling of many of these models and isolating one physical variable (resistance, impedance, etc) is often impossible or at the least very very difficult. As for the wire debate, Im sure there is a difference between wires. Its really a matter of can we hear it?!?!?! I can hear a difference if I use the ABSOLUTELY thinnest, crappiest wire versus RadioShack/Monster/DIY, it can significantly effect the timber. However, I cant hear the difference between the RadioShack, Monster, and my DIY. I did FEEL that I heard a difference when I bi-wired my speakers, but I attribute this difference to a change in wire gauge and not wire quality. Slight changes in SPL can significantly affect our observations on soundstage, clarity, etc To each is own...... -Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Dr Pyro..Dave Well said. Like a lot of things in life, there is an "art" and a "science" to how we perceive them. Take the best speakers, best wire, components, in a crappy room, it will probably sound horrible. However, take a crappy speaker, bad interconnects, a noisy amp in a fantastic room...yep still sounds like crap. A lot of of what Paul W Klipsch said a long time ago still rings true. "If you do not like what is going into the speakers, your not going to like what is coming out." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Last night I got inspired and rewired my Infinity Black Widow tonearm. It has always bugged me that they used the tiniest, hair-like wires in that thing! The cheap bastards! Now, with this 10 gauge wire (I had to zip-tie it to the outside of the arm), I feel I am hearing EVERYTHING all the way to the bottom of the groove (and beyond). fini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdrake Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Fini - You're probably not getting the ENTIRE groove unless you're using 100% lead wire. (Sheesh, I always have to check up on you, don't I?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hwatkins Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Which leads to another issue - As DD indicated, how can we hear all the music if the cartidge and needle are 'lightly' tracking? Surely you can't get the real deep bass unless the needle has enoungh presure to get to the deepest part of the groove. I like Fini's Idea of heavy wire - it gets rid of that unsightly stack of pennies duct taped to the tone arm. This is by far the most valuable 'common sense' audio forum on the web... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary W. Graley Posted March 6, 2004 Share Posted March 6, 2004 I recall buying a name brand speaker wire from Amazon.com a long time ago, came with gold connectors terminated on each end, the wire was SUPER flexible and there was a MARKED difference when I put that into my system, floored me as the cable wasn't too large! Since then I've lost that cable, probably from reading threads like this that teaches larger is better school of thinking either way I've gone to 12ga wire and recently bi-wired my RF7s and RC7 and it does sound nicer. BUT, and this is the point of my posting btw , I had some radio shack banana plug connectors, these are the type where you stick the wire through and the back end compresses the wire into the front end, not as it turns out, very solidly. The plugs did fit tightly into the speaker connectors and I was going to leave those there when I purchased some very nice GLS banana plugs from ebay, but to keep the system looking consistent I replaced those radio shack ones and WOW, my speakers came alive, it seems that even with bi-wireing using 12ga wire, from partsexpress.com btw, the final connection was lacking and that influenced the whole shebang! I tried the wire in the post but found the nut wouldn't keep tight so I'm going with the banana plugs all around... Good listening all! G2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff grace Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 you all need to look at web sites cardas.com and use or review harmonic technology cable interconnects and speaker wire and notice a real differance and the other wire they suggest in there -e-mail if you have any ?s jeff_gracee@yahoo.com amd also try using rotel amp and cd players ,and yamaha they beat everyone ,along with paradighm speakers (monitor series # 9) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 ---------------- On 11/11/2003 11:28:35 AM DrPyro wrote: I can hear a difference if I use the ABSOLUTELY thinnest, crappiest wire versus RadioShack/Monster/DIY, it can significantly effect the timber. However, I can’t hear the difference between the RadioShack, Monster, and my DIY. ---------------- Well, when I switched from Radio Shlock 16 gauge to Monster XP (16 guage), I heard a difference. It was pretty damned dramatic, I might add - and I did some very thorough (although admittedly, it wasn't blind) A/B testing to verify my observations. At the time, I was pretty much a skeptic - I bought it at a deep discount to "see what the fuss is all about". When I switched to Original Monster, I heard a pretty big difference as well, although I suspect that difference is more attributable to the jump from 16 gauge to 10 gauge. I'm going to experiment with some Ultralink Challenger 12-gauge (that I now have 350 feet of, thanks to a forum member needing some wire) versus the Original Monster that's currently on my speakers to see what kind of differences I can hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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