Painful Reality Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 ---------------- On 9/21/2003 7:25:35 PM NOSValves wrote: Your $100 worth of parts is one snobbish statement is I ever heard one !! How about you favorite Push pull amp that retailed at a whopping $69 and to this day has barely that worth of parts in it unless rebuilt? The cost of parts does not in anyway translate into the quality of the the end product. 90% of the high dollar audiophile parts cost nothing more to manufacture then the bargain basement parts the money is spent on pure marketing to get suckers to buy the stuff. If you want to believe the hype go for it. ---------------- Christ, you know I'm a snob. I wouldn't drink a Budweiser even if it would be to save my life. My favorite Push Pull (for now) is not the Eico but a "one of a kind" EL34 PP amp built by a more than potent designer, tube genius (and I don't often use this word) Michel Van Den Broech. It doesn't take to much imagination to realize that the Paramour was designed with a price point in mind. It has serious limitations. A Lada will never go as fast as a Porsche, no matter how much % of the sale price of the Porsche is invested in those "glossy magazines". Can anyone tell me how much $69 USD in 1959 would translate in 2003? P.S. I'll give that to you that a El Camino will be more handy to take the crap accumulating in the shed to the dump. A Porsche might not be helpful here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 I have trouble understanding the descriptions and words used to explain how DHT sounds. See through quality Magical midrange reveals the soul of the music These things don't really tell us anything about the actual sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 3 watts or 5 watts, whatever exactly SET can achieve, is not nearly enough to handle peaks, even on Klipschorns, of demanding material. If a few watts were enough, that would be magic. It really is not a matter of me saying so, Mr. Painful, it's physics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 The original question posed here of course was, Advice Needed....SET AMP for Cornwalls, so presuming the crowd is primarily SET dudes most of the prior responses posted should make sense. Craig and others take a logical approach though, if they haven't experienced the excitement of SET producing high quality music juice, then how do they know it exists? Why should they trust anyone but their own ears? A bit cynical but honest at least. Power output is an important issue, all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others, translation: expect to leave with your head ringing after a session with certain SET gear, despite the specs, less can be more, though perhaps not with the Bottlehead stuff, haven't heard them myself. Have a 250 watt Bryston that is a bass king, and an HF-81, too, but for some reason I keep coming back to these hamster wheel Wrights for musical juice. Guess the lure with SET has more to do with their purity in relation to their simplicity in build. As you know their advantage is they tend to produce smaller amounts of high-order harmonic distortion, because in single-ended amplifiers, there is no possibility of crossover distortion. This characteristic partially explains the result in terms such as, see through quality, magical midrange, reveals the soul of the music, but it's not exclusive to SET of course, just more than what you would expect to be its fair share at 8 watts or less. There's something rewarding with sharing this discovery with fellow music lovers. It's always a coup when somone who says they can't tell the difference to suddenly perk up and say Damn, how do I get this sound in my crib! Wish I could tell Craig how to get there in one post, if he's in these parts he's welcome to work in a weekend at Wrightsville Beach or Chapel Hill for further exposure. This hobby is often misunderstood and too often underappreciated, what really counts is how this stuff makes you feel, so hang in there if that's what you're after. SET is a journey, not a destination, in the meantime I still enjoy cranking up the he-man amps to bother the neighbors.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Jeff, You didn't completely catch what I was getting at the dollar cost doesn't always translate into getting what you pay for the Amp in question that cost $69 in 1959 cost half as much as almost every other Kit amp of the same era but somehow is the magical amp from that era so some say. This is the point I'm trying to make here. You stated it like because Bottlehead amp is $100 worth of parts it was not even remotely representative of what SET has to offer. First off try to buy all the parts to construct one for $100 I think that would be a job to say the least. The prices for components across the board are ridicules if it has anything to do with audio. Take the Blackgate 100 X 100 Uf @ 500V costs $100 anywhere you can source it now take the same 100/100uF 500V JJ its $13 do you really believe the Blackgate cost 8 times as much to produce ? These companies are just hyping there products up and keep availability down. In the process making a killing. Jenson, Hovland you name there all guilty as charged. I personally like the newer companies like JJ, Audience and Sonic Craft that sell there products at reasonable prices and make them available to the small guy. My point was that price is not the determining factor in any components worth ! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 ---------------- On 9/21/2003 8:44:56 PM paulparrot wrote: It really is not a matter of me saying so, Mr. Painful, it's physics. ---------------- parrot <'pærət> noun 1 any bird of the tropical and subtropical order Psittaciformes, having a short hooked bill, compact body, bright plumage, and an ability to mimic sounds Related adj: psittacine 2 a person who repeats or imitates the words or actions of another unintelligently 3 sick as a parrot (usually facetious) extremely disappointed verb (-rots, -roting, -roted) 4 to repeat or imitate mechanically without understanding 'parrotry noun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 ---------------- On 9/21/2003 8:17:26 PM DeanG wrote: I have trouble understanding the descriptions and words used to explain how DHT sounds. See through quality Magical midrange reveals the soul of the music These things don't really tell us anything about the actual sound. ---------------- How about "SET = 5-10% THD"? Better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 That was the most beautiful series of posts in quite awhile. Tad, that was an extremely well-said post that put most of this into perspective. Well done, especially considering you have been here only a short time. Jeff, that was perhaps the ONE-TWO post of the year so far. Lordy, that was funny as a bastard. I would think even PAUL is laughing... Simply Beautiful. The response to Dean was succinct and clear as a bell. How to say much with very little. This calls for a cartoon! kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Typically, crossover distortion only exists in a well designed Class AB push-pull amp if the bias is set too low. Also, if like me, one is running 50 watts or more -- there is anywhere between 8 and 15 watts of Class A. I asked about the Joplin, and suppose I could have just as well have asked Jeff: Is the sound of the low powered amps attributed more to the topology, or the tube type? For example, how would one characterize the difference in sound between a 2A3 DHT push-pull, and a 2A3 DHT SET? Craig -- I was just out on the net checking out the Blackgate graphs with the circles, arrows and all those wonderful numbers that explain why they are "better". Joe Rosin says they have "sh!t floating around in them", though he didn't elaborate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 ---------------- On 9/21/2003 9:11:14 PM NOSValves wrote: I personally like the newer companies like JJ, Audience and Sonic Craft that sell there products at reasonable prices and make them available to the small guy. My point was that price is not the determining factor in any components worth ! Craig ---------------- JJ Electrolytic caps are good. They compare with the blue things from England (what was their name again? anyway... they're gone too). I still wish the Cerafines were available at their initial price. THOSE were true bargain as they came so close to the Black Gates at 1/10th of the price. BTW Craig, the term "small people" is really rude. It is now replaced by the more politically correct denomination of "auditory challenged person" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 Craig -- I was just out on the net checking out the Blackgate graphs with the circles, arrows and all those wonderful numbers that explain why they are "better". Joe Rosin says they have "sh!t floating around in them", though he didn't elaborate. I have no Idea if what old Joe suggested is true and in general the guy thinks everything is junk. But in principal it will be a cold day in hell before my money is spent on Blackgates. It will take a customer that has the deep pockets and the will to pay for them before I audition them. I wouldn't call myself cheap but I am a value orientated person and I just see no value in those babies they could be the best thing since sliced bread but I will not take my hard earned dollar and turn it over to thieves ! Hell I wouldn't be surprised if there actually made at the same factory as Xicon LOL !! Jeff, BTW Craig, the term "small people" is really rude. It is now replaced by the more politically correct denomination of "auditory challenged person" Okay so your taking lessons on how to insult people in Morse code from KH now Heh ! real cute so who is small ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkrop Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 Can anyone tell me how much $69 USD in 1959 would translate in 2003? A brand new VW beetle sold for 750.00 greenbacks Chrysler Imperial 2999.00 $ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 Mr. Painful, I note that instead of even trying to deal with the indisputable points I brought up, you attempt to be sarcastic, then attempt to be funny. What I find funny is arguments about what parts to use in an amp that suffers from such serious built-in limitations. So I am getting a kick out of this thread. To repeat, it is not possible for SET, with just a few watts, to handle the demands of lots of different music. It doesn't matter how the design is implemented or who builds it because the limitations are inherent in the SET circuit. SET is also not good at handling lots of instruments at once, as in a recording of an orchestra. Perhaps you haven't noticed this? Flowery language about magic doesn't override the physics involved in SET, nor its pinched dynamics, nor the mush it makes when desperately trying to resolve certain passages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 If one respects the limitations of the circuit, and do not drive the amps into excessive clipping -- then they probably sound really good. If the reserve power is there -- then they should be able to handle any kind of music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 Mr. Parrot, Your absence of this thread will be missed. You might look for my views on slew rate vs compressed transient vs musical perception elsewhere on this Forum. Hopefully you'll add some sentences to your vocabulary. If it can please you: No a 3.5 Watt amp won't play Bob Seger and the Silver Bullet Band at 117 dB. This you can repeat. P.S (edit): Sorry I misread your "kick out of this thread" as a "bail out of this thread". The subtlety of the English language often eludes my SET Lover brain. I can therefore expect some more contributions from your side on this "help me with choosing a SET amp" thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 ---------------- On 9/22/2003 6:54:05 AM NOSValves wrote: I have no Idea if what old Joe suggested is true and in general the guy thinks everything is junk. But in principal it will be a cold day in hell before my money is spent on Blackgates. It will take a customer that has the deep pockets and the will to pay for them before I audition them. I wouldn't call myself cheap but I am a value orientated person and I just see no value in those babies they could be the best thing since sliced bread but I will not take my hard earned dollar and turn it over to thieves ! Hell I wouldn't be surprised if there actually made at the same factory as Xicon LOL !! Jeff, BTW Craig, the term "small people" is really rude. It is now replaced by the more politically correct denomination of "auditory challenged person" Okay so your taking lessons on how to insult people in Morse code from KH now Heh ! real cute so who is small ? ---------------- I'm sorry I misquoted you you by putting "small people" in your mouth when you actually wrote "small guy". I consider myself as value oriented person by knowing that in audio the law of diminushing return applies. Everyone will tell you this. Am I ready to invest in the last 5%? To a point. For exemple I'll NEVER "value orientate myself" toward the choice of an OPT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 For exemple I'll NEVER "value orientate myself" toward the choice of an OPT. Well as you know I am going to like I always do find out for myself very soon with OPT. But your buddy Mike is going to have to jump on board because I'm not willing to pay retail for his transformers no way ! I can compare with the vintage Iron I have on hand which I really don't think Mike's can better by any real margin. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 ---------------- On 9/22/2003 9:52:18 AM NOSValves wrote: I can compare with the vintage Iron I have on hand which I really don't think Mike's can better by any real margin. Craig ---------------- Seems you already have your answer for the OPTs you need. Why bother then? Go vintage... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 Actually no I have not fire up the "Value orriented Iron" yet so I have no answer. Besides vintage is not a option for new amps to resale now is it ! By the way I was just trying to find where I posted Small guy ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 ---------------- On 9/22/2003 10:03:54 AM NOSValves wrote: Actually no I have not fire up the "Value orriented Iron" yet so I have no answer. Besides vintage is not a option for new amps to resale now is it ! By the way I was just trying to find where I posted Small guy ?? ---------------- "personally like the newer companies like JJ, Audience and Sonic Craft that sell there products at reasonable prices and make them available to the small guy." Previous page, about 3/4 down the page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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