Grand11 Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 I'd also like to point out that many online companies are honoring speaker warranties in-house in order to help get the sale. I know the company I bought from mail me in writing, along with the product, thier personal guarantee to deal with manufacturer defects. Did I listen to some setups in a B&M store? Sure did. Guilty as charged. When I told the sales rep that I was probably going to buy online but wanted to hear them first, He warned me about the warranty. I stated there's no way warranty justifies a 33% price difference, esp. when the online store would honor it. I then turned around and said that if he could come close I'd consider paying just to have a local dealer I could turn to. He just blanky looked at me and said "I can't do that, but if you change your mind here's my card". The inevtiable, IMHO, is what companies like SVS are doing. Eventually the entire distribution model is going to change, and it's already started. THe problem is, older companies like the old method because it still makes money so they're fighting tooth and nail to keep it. But it's adapt or die, no matter how much they fight it through distribution channels or legal legislation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ygmn Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 ---------------- On 9/17/2003 2:06:34 PM bclarke421 wrote: Regarding the warranty, the warranty is there to protect you from manufacturing and component flaws. Even in a cost-no-object product these things can and do happen. ---------------- They can break but they should not at this higher end with all the testing etc...Most electronics will fry when on for the first 20-40 hours or they will last a long long time.....usually only the mechanical components break...like CD or DVD carriage mechanisms.....I cannot tell you how many times I have had to repair my Pioneer Laser Disk player for the tray getting stuck.... I guess my another question is why does KLIPSCH allow this gray market on the internet exist.....the market must be from authorized retailers selling at low margins ... I cannot beleive it is from factory rejects or repairs as this would have the ability to tarnish KLIPSCH imagine with the buying public.....I feel klipsch allows this gray market since it brings in big sales and profits for corporate....and they do no have to warranty to boot so they can take the warranty money set aside for those and put it toward the bottom line..... I do not like the idea of a manufacture setting prices to its retailers.... If a retailer wants to sell at a low margin then so be it...his closest competition will have to fall in line or lose market share and maybe go out of business...otherwise their really isn't any local competition.....If local guys would sell for what these internet companies could or within a 5-10% their sales would increase in their local market..... People need some extra money for their booze to sip while listening to music..... PEACE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damonrpayne Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 Many people are saying "adapt or die" and to some extent I agree. However, with many products like audio there is a huge advantage to going in to a B&M store to demo. What bothers me is that you can go into your local dealer, do your comparisons for your ear, then go buy them online for 40% less. That's fine as long as only some people do it, but let's say it becomes incredibly common. Then your local audio shop goes out of business. Fine, they didn't adapt so they went under. The next guy comes along and refuses to spend money on ANY speaker, regardless of brand, without hearing it. Where did the local retailers go? They went out of business. Companies like Klipsch sell the speakers to resellers and make the same money regardless. However, they need a way to demonstrate their product and the Authorized Dealer thing is one of they few ways they can help audio shops combat the online sellers. I think companies _might_ start being very careful about who they sell their product to, in order to restrict the supply available to the online guys. Just my $.02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 Adapt or die sounds very good.This applies also to the too expensive AMERICAN labour,this is why so many AMERICANS lost,lose and will continue losing their jobs. Because some punk swine wants at all costs,and the many who want to pay less and less dont know but they push their own insustries to the hole. Yeah lets send all assembly work to the PRC and just design things here.Yeah great idea NOT.The truth is many well paid jobs were lost,over 400000 in the computer related sector!That is 400000 less well paid people who have kids and who WERE spending on local economy.Now these jobs are GONE in the name of STINKING profit at all costs and COSTS REDUCTIONS. Lets all start to ask for the best price and shave the last cent,soon most who want the best possible price will lose their own jobs thanks to this tactic.Well done,do not worry you will have your beer.beer brewed OUTSIDE the USA because US beer is way too expensive. People YOU are too expensive,I want a Klipsch RF7 to be sold for $250 no more and a Krell for under a grand.Move all production to the great PRC.And do it NOW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand11 Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 Ah theEar, now we're getting into the great debates of globalization! Not sure if this is the right place for it or not ... Normally I would actually say: "so what". If the people are going to ask for more than the rest of the world they better be able to supply more than the rest of the world. But no, I'm not THAT libertarian . Politics unforunately make the debate of a global economy infintely more complicated than that. But if we simplify it a bit, and simply look at the US traditional distro model vs. what is emerging, I'm sorry, but I feel no sympathy for resellers who try to act as sole distributors for a product when there's no reason we can't buy direct. Companies used to pay people like IngramMicro to distribute because originally it was infintitely cheeper to pay to use someone elses supply chain then set on up thier own. Between the Internet and these new nation-wide shipping companies, however, they simply arn't needed. But a few exlusive contracts here, a few more there, and both manuf. and the B&M can get themselves in a bind really quickly. Many times the "price lock" comes from the middle man. If Klipsch partnered with IngramMicro exclusively (I don't know the company, I'm speculating) for product distro, then guess who sets the initial markup no B&M will go under? If Klipsch decides to sell direct, guess what distribution contract they risk loosing and how many end B&M the could loose contact with? Yup, traditional resellers risk loosing alot. But for every step they loose, FedEX and UPS need to step thier employees up to meet new demands. If Companies would "take the plunge" the market would still need people. We'd just be shattering contracts that needlessly increase cost. OK, that went on for way too long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damonrpayne Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 The point that myself, and TheEar (in his own way) are making is that there's more to it than price. When you behave as though price is the only factor, you are in the end only harming yourself and others. As I said, this is fine if only one person does it, but not when everyone decides thats the way to go. Globalization: I work as a software developer. A few short years ago I got out of college to the promise of a solid middle class income for the rest of my life due to "more technology jobs than we'll ever be able to fill". Now, I have many friends who are out of work and will most likely never work in technology again. At my Alma Matter enrollment in computer science has almost completely stopped: the writing on the wall is very easy to read and it says don't bother because there won't be a job for you. Why? Because someone decided price was the only important factor. Don't even get me started on globalization and the politics behind it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damonrpayne Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 Ah, man, I just can't leave this alone. Saying that another sector needs to be stepped up when another goes under (your UPS/retail example) is complete nonsense. The real result is accellerated deflation: when no one has money to spend (TheEar's point) no one can sell their products at the same prices anymore, so they now must cut costs to offer their goods/services at a level the under-employed populace can afford. This drive to cut costs will sacrifice yet another industry/sector to the gold cow of low operating cost. The result is that 1st world countries standards' of living are slowly moved towards 3rd world countries standards of living untill there is no difference. Is that bad/unfair? Depends on which side you are on. While the whole human race doing a little bit better at our expense may seem somewhat noble, consider the other provable facts: middle class America's actual buying power reached its peak in the mid 1970s, ever since then we cab afford less and less each year. At the same time, CEO/CFO/CIO pay and Enron-style fraud becomes more outrageous. My point? Some are getting richer by lobbying congress to allow unlimited numbers of immigrants into the country for the sole purpose of driving my salary down to 3rd world levels. Can I blame someone who comes from a poor country and only wants do do well for themself? Of course not, it takes guts to come to a new country where you may not fit in and may be hated by the people you are replacing, and I respect that. Who I do blame are the short sighted lawmakers and morally bankrupt businesspeople who are more than willing to sell out millions of their own countrymen to make a quick buck. Sorry about taking up space here, this has nothing to do with this great hobby that I'm happy I can still afford. Peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ygmn Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 The econeomy has been going for a long long time....before they invented money....before gold....it started with trade....and now due to technology it is a WORLD economy....so it is learn and adapt or die.... But none of this has to do with buying on the internet....WHICH again you can buy many KLIPSCH products for about 2/3 to 1/2 the dealer price....This is significant....This allows someone to buy 4 RF7 for the price of two...which is a big deal....I cannot think of the service a local guy could be worth that much.....and what happens if I do not want to pay for this service from the local retailer? Online I do not have to....but locally I am forced to even though I may not want it.... Again we make choices...and more and more people are buying things online then ever before due to the lower pricing that is available... But I bet the3 internet guy is paying more for the speaker then the AUTHORIZED dealer so why can't the local guy slash his price and sell at INTERNET prices and still make money.... If the non authorized internet retailers are getting the product for less then the authorized local retailer then shame on KLIPSCH.... Where do they get the product? PS most internet retailers are based in the states have payroll pay taxes etc etc and are another form of business...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 "...so it is learn and adapt or die...." Easy to say,when the day comes and strikes you or someone who is close to you you will eat you words.And reflect on what you just said. A few days ago some plant here in Quebec Canada was firing a good few employees and one of the LUCKY(fat,obese,grotesque creature) was interviewed and said "C'est la vie" well he will one day get kicked so hard in his obese behind he will land on his BIG nose and when he asks for help the people will say "C'est la vie mon ami". What is referred as globalisation is in fact a giant toilet to make a few filthy rich and the vast majority(YOU PEOPLE,YES YOU)work harder and harder.No the vaporware internet companies days in the sun are starting to end. You know I was NEVER ...EVER with no job,not even one day.And I have a good job,and work all the hours I can but I dont say "adapt or die" those who often say it THEY GO SIX FEET UNDER one day.Its a sure bet,its LA VIE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damonrpayne Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 Shout it loud Ear. I couldn't agree more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 One thing I can confirm is that some salespeople have killed a good deal with a promising purchaser (me). My guess is that some believe they can read the customer and blow off the ones perceived as non-serious. Of course the good salesmen know they're building a relation, even with people who are window shopping. I've talked about this before. In about 1982 I had the cash to spend and walked into a high end store in downtown Chicago. Yes, I was young, but well dressed (blue three piece suit, tie, etc.) I walked into one of the high end listening rooms. Evidently there was some store rule that no one gets in there without a salesman in tow--probably more like leading them by the nose. So I was just about asked to leave. I tried again at a shop in the suburbs a few months later. In this case it was a Klipsch dealer and I did listen to the big horns with a Belle center. That salesman was good. I was listening to Beethoven and another salesman came by, making mocking "boomety boomety boom" noises. This was a comment on Beethoven, rather than Klipsch. Still, it put me a little off pace in the walk toward making a purchase. The sound was magnificent though. Near the end I asked to look at wood samples and said something like "I want to think it over." It seems that then I was not as welcome anymore. Any word like, "Fine, come back next weekend and we can talk about prices," probably would have gotten me back on the enterprise of making a purchase. I can't quite put a finger on it. However, I really did get the impression that second visit would be less than pleasant and it soured the relationship. No sale was made. Eventially, I built my own. More recently I went to Tweeter about a big screen TV. The salesman was nice enough but missed really getting my confidence. It was more like a car salesman saying, "Well this one looks nice too, don't ya think." I was little uninformed. Still, if he was a bit more able to advise on resolution, heavy technical aspects, I'd feel better. Probably, I will buy from Tweeter if the price is anywhere near competitive. Bill H. and I stopped by Saturday Audio, the new Klipsch dealer, last weekend. The fellow there was pretty good. I'd bought some used Quintets from him a few years ago. So the relationship was friendly. I'll probably by a Klipsch sub in year. It will not be on the Internet. Most of what you fellows are talking about is not new. So I yawn. Mail order to places without retailers is what made the Sears Robuck catalog (now Internet). Some manufacturers obviously didn't want to do business with Sears. It was their choice. Probably a matter of not wanting to investigate who would become the dog and who whould be the tail. Also, auto manufacturers and retailier dump old stock every September, making way for new models. The Big Three felt the heat from the Jap manufacturers in the '70s. And each of the Big Three eventually formed business relations with oriental or oxidental manufacturers. The UAW gripes, the public keeps buying. So, I don't wring my hands too much. Best Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 Its sad to read about the hordes of incopetent clowns who play the roles of informed and pro sales people.Sad these bozos kill the market they should help grow. I noticed this too,only no sales man dictates anything to me.I let the wannabe know who is boss and who knows more.And often question the joker about upcoming gear and tell them what they will see then they bow down. Most people know little about the world of audio and lose any taste buying in real stores,because of the inflexible and arrogant sales dumbos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ygmn Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 All this cause some guy asked where he could buy online.....hehehe I do agree to some extent that people can and will lose jobs ...it happens all the time... I ask a simple question....where do these KLIPSCH products sold at many many online retailers come from.....where do they get them?.....are they paying more then the authorized retailer or less? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 ---------------- On 9/17/2003 11:16:20 PM ygmn wrote: I ask a simple question....where do these KLIPSCH products sold at many many online retailers come from.....where do they get them?.....are they paying more then the authorized retailer or less? ---------------- My guess is that some authorized retailers bought a larger amount of product than they really need for thier own stores in order to get a better bulk discount. They then turn around and sell off the extra stock to the "grey market" for a little bit more they paid themselves. They may also "doctor" the serial numbers so that the product cannot be traced back. For example, say a dealer found out that they need to buy 100 units to get a 20% discount off the reguler whole-sale price. They only needed 30 units to keep thier stores stocked with sufficient product to satisfy thier customer's demands (to whom they sell the units at full MSRP, maybe a token %10-$20 percent off the MSRP if a customer makes a big enough noise about it). They may than go and sell the other 70 units to the "grey market" at the regular whole-sale price (thus pocketing the 20% savings as a profit). Again, this is purely speculation on my part, but I would not be surprised if that is how it actually works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damonrpayne Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 That would make sense, and thus Klipsch and others comment that warranties are voided if serial numbers are removed, etc. I made the comment earlier that unless there is a wholesale distrubutor in between Klipsch and these buyers, they may soon find themselves unable to buy product at any price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 I'm heartened to see some respect and support for good salesmen and real businesses with long-term plans (not 5-yr & out plans). Thank you, guys!! As I said, local guys MUST compete and in actuality, I find we need to do everything a little bit better because of the unrealistic expectations of some customers. That's OK, I don't need to make as much money as buy.com to remain solvent> Re: the serial numbers -- I believe Klipsch has "invisible" S/N hidden in the speaker to prevent tampering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canin2323 Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 I think klipsch should've never ended it's relationship with tweeter. Now i can't get any reference speakers at tweeter. O well my local tweeter sux anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HT Rookie Posted September 18, 2003 Author Share Posted September 18, 2003 Boy, it seems that I have sparked quite a discussion. I guess I now owe it to all explain my reasoning behind the question. First and foremost- If you read my question, you would note that I asked if there were any AUTHORIZED dealers online. I want to deal with a reputable company that will be honored by Klipsch in case something did happen. I also only have 2 stores in my area that are Klipsch dealers or true high end stores, so I was looking at my options. Am I price conscience, Yes I am. But I am also very conscience of the level of customer service I get. It is a huge pet peeve with me. Ignore me and you will lose my business, too pushy or arrogant and you will lose my business. I am not a rich man, and unfortunately, circumstances in my life dictate what my budget is that I can spend. I had to relocate b/c of work, which meant buying a new house, my wife would be giving up her job (we then become a 1 income family), my wife and I are also expecting a new baby in less than 1 month, which means a new minivan, b/c you can not fit 3 car seats in a sedan. These are some of the circumstances that dictate what I can spend on my new home theater. Therefore I am price conscience, but that does not mean that I am not willing to buy from a local dealer, but yes only if the price is right for me, not what is best for them. Someone out here said they are in the business of making money, and I say that I am in the business of looking out for what is best for me and my family. Don't get me wrong, there is a happy median, I believe that when both sides compromise, the businesses can be profitable and the consumer satisfied with what they paid without having quality sacrificed. There are obvious things you can get from a local store that you can not get from an online dealer, I know this. But let me aks you this, how do you handle over zealous salespeople who work on commision and really only care more about their money than the consumer they are suppose to be helping. I am also faced with that here in my area and that is another reason I asked about online stores. Sorry for the rambling- I guess I just wanted to get my 2 cents in and let you all know where I am coming from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 HT Rookie, I hear you,and I understand.The stores who have inflexible jokers passing as sales people should go out of business. There is a store in Montreal a known store BTW that I will not even name that has "sales" and when the sale is going all you see is 15% off...max.I NEVER shop there and warn others to avoid them. I was about to purchase a B&W ASW4000 sub,the gracious salesman was about to cut 20% on the tortured and banged up floor model.Screw them,I want a deal on a new unit,not a piece of garbage. What this clown does not know is the fact he not only lost this sale but many more sales.What a bum Stores that give me that first good deal,get my money ...lots more money later when I send customers and buy larger and...larger gear.Inflexible people loose many times the small gain they have in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Hi Clark, I've been away, but I'm back. No, I certainly did not take offence to your asking me what I do for a living. And I appologize for sounding PO'd at salesmem. I'm not, not at all. As a matter of fact I made good friends with the salesman (Kirby, yep, that's his name) that sold me my HTS. He is very cool, and everytime I walk into Ultimate Elec. I will only deal with him. We have developed a very good repitua. Regards, Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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