kevincaudill Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 I am having a HUGE problem with the WAF (wife acceptance factor) of my new 5.1 setup. I purchased 2 RF-25s for the front along with a RC-25 center and 2 RB-25 rears. The wife hated the center channel on top as well as the rears. She could tolerate the towers though. So now i am faced with possibly going inwall for the rear surrounds, which i dont think will make a huge problem. However, for the center channel i am needing to go inwall or none at all. My dealer said you could set the receiver to some sort of "phantom center channel" mode where you wouldnt need a center channel at all, claims you cant tell a difference. Does anyone have any experience with this setup? Conversely, if i go inwall with the center could i still use the two tower RF-25s since it will be so far behind them? I want to salvage some sort of system even if it isnt ideal at this point. Thanks as always for all your help! Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arj Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 Hi Kevin, Most of us should understand your problem ! What receiver are you using ? Phantom center means that all signals meant for the center channel would be split and sent to the Right & Left speakers. For a good effect, they should be close to the TV which may affect the soundstage for Music. The HK receivers have a setting for "Phantom". In Onkyo you only need to set it up for 4 speakers (L,R, surrounds) and it will default the Center to L & R. I am sure other receivers would have this in one way or the other. Hope this helps.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevincaudill Posted September 20, 2003 Author Share Posted September 20, 2003 Thanks for the quick reply! i will have the front speakers set just to the sides of the tv no matter what set up i go with due to space limitations. I have the Denon 1804 but the dealer was pushing a Yamaha 640 model (one of their newer receivers) which did sound pretty good. I guess one questions is would it be better to maybe upgrade the RF-25s to RF-35s or even RF-5s and use the phantom mode versus keeping the RF-25s and going in wall behind the tv for a center channel? Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arj Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 I am not an expert on this as I do not have any experience with In wall speakers..although i am not sure it could do a good job as an alternative to the Center channel. Why dont you try out the Phantom Channel first...if you are able to follow the Dialogues easily as well as if you can verify that the Dialogues do appear to be coming from the characters position on the screen..it should be good enough for you ! Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 Kevin : Can you trade the wife instead? Seriously though, she can't handle the center channel look? Why not suggest that she can put a potted plant on top of it, and see how it looks then? Maybe it wont be as intrusive then. My amplifier is home to two potted plants to satisfy the wife. Not to mention, they like the heat, especially in the winter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschfoot Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 in-wall is pretty invasive especially if you want to upgrade later. Sounds like you don't have any sort of entertainment unit. Have you tried the center BELOW the TV? In-wall could also disturb the source plane of your soundtrack if you use your towers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 You hold your ground, stand firm! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
space_cowboy Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Just yesterday I was experimenting using the phantom mode on my receiver and had somewhat favorable results, still need to play around with it. I just got tired of the look of the monster KLF-C7 sitting on the TV, plus, think I started to detect some sag where it was sitting. Can't comment much on in-wall speakers other than you better be sure your TV and chairs won't be changing positions...hard to move in-wall speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arj Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 Hi...interesting read on the Phantom channel ! http://www.soundstage.com/surrounded/surrounded200307.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ygmn Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 I feel the Center is the most important speaker in HT.....it is a must for crips and clear dialogue....and it also allows for great left right tranisition sounds..... Hide it with a crochet doilie or something fru fru chickish...but keep the center..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 I'm currently using phantom centre mode with my setup, as the alnico Heresys I bought won't fit with my TV unit at the moment. The centre speaker was originally proposed by Bell laboratories before the introduction of stereo... as it insured good imaging for numerous seating positions. It was dropped due to the complexities of having 3tracks in one vinyl groove... so stereo was deemed good enough given that the effect was pretty much the same when seated in the sweet spot. There lies the biggest difference between having a centre or phantoming it... it restricts the seating area. A mismatched centre will affect the front stage balance and draw attention to itself esp in front L/R pans. So much so that given the choice between a mismatched centre and a phantom centre, I'd go with the phantom. You can sit in the sweet spot and have your wife sit next to you... after all she is willing to sacrifice the centre. Everyone will be happy. Later... Rob PS: If you've got the option and given that you'll have some $ left over, i like your idea of upgrading the RF25 to either RF35 or RF5 even better... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 YGMM---The center is the most important speaker? Nonsense. You can do fine in phantom mode. Sounds to me like you've been believing too many HT magazines. If you're actually getting an improvement in clarity with a center your mains must be pretty bad; that or your center is set way too high in level thus giving "a" sound instead of accurate sound. Believe me, when using a pair of good speakers in phantom mode there's no problem with lack of clarity or crispness. As another poster has stated the use of the center speaker is to anchor sound to the center of the screen for customers of to the sides of the screen. Useful in theatres this practice is often unnneeded in homes. I've used both phantom and center speakers and my preference is for phantom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerohm Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 ---------------- On 9/23/2003 5:52:55 AM TBrennan wrote: ... ---------------- I respectfully agree AND disagree. While I DO believe that phantom mode is preferable to a poorly matched/positioned center, it severely limits the elusive sweet spot. If you find yourself watching movies alone, you can monopolize that sweet spot and be just fine. If not however, a matched center opens up the seating posibilities by anchoring the dialog to the screen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burtlively Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 get some silk ivy ( a bunch of it) and cover the top of your tv. it is AMAZING how this stuff improves WAF. i have just about every piece of equipment i own covered in the stuff. sure it may degrade your sound somewhat, but it is not noticeable to me. another idea is to build an entertainment center. i built one for my ht & created one custom speaker for my fronts with some wood and speaker fabric. now it seems to be one speaker across the front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ygmn Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 ---------------- On 9/23/2003 5:52:55 AM TBrennan wrote: YGMM---The center is the most important speaker? Nonsense. You can do fine in phantom mode. Sounds to me like you've been believing too many HT magazines. If you're actually getting an improvement in clarity with a center your mains must be pretty bad; that or your center is set way too high in level thus giving "a" sound instead of accurate sound. Believe me, when using a pair of good speakers in phantom mode there's no problem with lack of clarity or crispness. As another poster has stated the use of the center speaker is to anchor sound to the center of the screen for customers of to the sides of the screen. Useful in theatres this practice is often unnneeded in homes. I've used both phantom and center speakers and my preference is for phantom. ---------------- For listneing to human voice it is important....when the mains are forced to play it it sounds more like stereo and hard to localize the sound.....it makes it un natural....where asa center impresses the sound coming from the screen and makes the movie more realsitic...more like being the camera which is what the director wants......your eyes and ears are at the screen..... the mains are for sound effects and sound track....in HT....they are suppose to be to the sides of the screen..... Now this is all my opinion which means squat exceopt to me...... HEHEHe peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardhead Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 Here's the simplest and most effective solution: have your wife sit in another room. Did I mention that I'm divorced? I got the Klipschorns and center Belle, though. It was like giving up a negative to get a positive. Seriously, though, it's your home, too. Did I mention that I'm divorced? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STL Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 If your wife is being that stubborn then I would suggest trading her in on a new more understanding model. Whatever you decide, don't give up having a center channel speaker!! Without it your HT won't sound near as good as it should, and it will have a very small "sweet spot". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STL Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 Upgrading to larger mains really won't help the problem of not having a center. Also, I recommend against an in-wall center too. It would likely be mounted consideribly behind the television thus you get a lot of reflected sound from the top/back of the television that it is trying to fire over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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