Advice needed...............SET amps for Cornwalls part 2

[mobile homeless]

You know, this low level listening is an interesting thing. Many amps dont do this very well. Actually, many speakers have trouble with this, too. It takes a carefully matched system of the right gear to bloom at low listening levels. Most systems need to be given a little juice to open up and flesh out the sound. I will say that the WRights with the 6SN7 pre do a VERY nice job at low levels into the Cornwalls, perhaps better than my Moondogs although they are very close. I have been at my friend Tad's place (Are Friends Electric) and listened to good recordings at very low levels as he likes to listen at that volume. I think the Wrights were good in this regard. Then again, I still felt the need to turn them up a bit. Still, I will bet your we werent out of the 80s.

It really does take a special combination to nail low level listening. I actually find the vintage amps to not be the best candidate here, especially the various integrateds. The EICO probably does a more credible job than most at low level detail, however, if looking at the vintage integrated.

I am thinking you might like the DRD amps. Would you really be adverse to soldering your first amp, especially if it's this few a parts?

kh

[Deang]

Are you kidding me? I could build the DRD's with Craig stomping both of my feet and strangling me with the cord of my soldering iron.

[mobile homeless]

On the phone a week or so back, Craig was even telling me he would eventually build a SET amp so dont feel too stressed. Actually, I am almost positive Craig would build you a Welborne DRD offering... And then proceed to say it stunk... but at least he would probably do a credible job. I would have to send him the music I promised so he might appreciate it.

kh

ps- btw, I actually like listening at fairly loud levels, certainly more so than most of my friends. I know Tad is a bit put out by it. Not sure if he would chime in here but perhaps he might comment on some of the listening sessions we have had here. I have such a wide variety of music here, that all volumes seem to come into play (not to mention the various moods). Actually, jazz on good vinyl at a high volume can sound so damn life-like, it's spooky real.

[NOSValves]

You know peoples perception of my SET opinion are actually off by a pretty good margin. I truly believe in its operating range with a quality product it probably sounds awesome. What bothers me is the proponents that try to make it out to be something its not or get all defensive when someone brings up the absolute weakness .

The Low level listening discussion above is a definite strong point for SET while a very weak point for higher powered PP.

If I built a Set amp for myself or anyone else I seriously don't think I would say it was junk when finished but I would not bother to waste my time building a Paramour I can tell you that for sure.

Craig

[kjohnsonhp]

I've found I enjoy my Cornwalls at lower SPL than most modern speakers. I'm turning modern "laid back" speakers up over 90db looking for that same sensation I get from my cornwalls at 80db.

I keep reading how many fans of these DynAudio type speakers really like how they can play at high SPL (90db+ I believe) without being fatiguing and harsh but I often feel like saying you need to turn them up to 95db just to get them to make you wanna dance.

Mallett likes the higher spl live sound, but in my smaller room I rarely play my Cornwalls above 85db....80db with loud passages pushing the needle to the right is really rocking to my ears in my small closed room.

At 90db I start turning down the bass and becoming more critical. Under 80db I start thinking I have a pretty nice setup. At 90db I start thinking of upgrades.

Source selection is important. I was pretty happy with my JOE JACKSON "You Can't Get What You Want" on vinyl at 90db but some piano tracks on his other lps didn't sound pleasing at that volume.

The better electronics and source I feed my Cornwalls the louder I can turn them up, but I assume sustained 90db isn't good for one ears?

Sorry, but these are all commens using vintage PP not SET but Kelly's commens above sparked my reaction.

[sunnysal]

just to throw in my two cents about low level listening, since I am often forced to listen at low levels while the kids are studying nearby or when the wife doesn't want to hear "my music" while watching the cooking channel. I was VERY unsatisfied with both the performance of my EL34 PP amp (the dynaco MkIV) and my SS amps (Marantz esotec and PWM) at low levels.

As you know I had also auditioned various SETs in my system (300B and 2A3s) before ordering Jeff's DHT PP amplifier and I liked the sound from the SETs, they did run out of steam on many recordings in my system which led me to DHT PP BUT the SETs did sound good at low levels, fullness of sound and good detail.

Jeff's 2A3 PP amp is marvelous at low levels and plays as loud as my EL34 monoblocks. I truely think I have gotten the best of both worlds.

I also conclude that SET versus PP is not the only factor to consider, one must look at tube selection, circuit topology, parts selection and quality, etc. the PP versus SET battle seems to me to be ill informed, there is much more to it than that.

one last note, why buy new? if budget is an issue take advantage of all the audio maniacs out there turning over their equipment every year (or more often) and get an almost new SET or DHT PP from audiogon or ebay. Or even get kit, or if you are REALLY lucky find someone like Jeff who builds great versions of amps for what a used amp costs (or less). MHO of course.

regards, tony

[mobile homeless]

Tony, what were some of the musical selections that ran out of steam via the various SET amps? Where these the Cary amps? I will say that not all the Cary SET amps are created equal and I also do believe that Cary, of all the SET amps, seem to hold up less at higher volumes than some of the other SET selections. My favorite implementation of the Cary SET amps was the 300se Monoblocks with the EXTRA WHOLE CHASSIS of PS caps. EVen then, I dont think this setup did heavily complex music justice, surely not near the level of my MagneQuest DS-025 shod Moondogs. Like Jeff, I have never really thought the stereo SET from Cary to be particularly extended. But the 300se Monos of old with the Cap bank overshadowed the more potent Cary 805 Monos in that special life-like, non-electronic quality that SET seems to nail.

But system matching is so very important with SET amps. I believe the preamp can make or break this combination as well, and an OK preamp can obscure the more sublime performance aspects of the single-ended triode experience. Hell, even cable plays such a tremendous role. Listening to those Cary 300se/PS bank and the Purist Audio Maximus water cable was a whole different ballgame compared to the Kimber 4AG Silver mated with the XLO 5. I was almost flummoxed at the difference here as the PAD cable was heads and shoulders more natural sounding than the Kimber 4Ag silver and XLO.

A lot of good info has been given here in defense of SET within its limits. Yet I am here to say that these limits really depend on the ACTUAL SET being used as well as the total setup. It really does get old when people constantly banter about SET with very little experience with this gear in their own setup. The transformers, parts, circuit, and build are CRITICAL in the performance of Single-ended triode amps in the extremes (and at higher volume where mediocre or average iron and PS will yield a collapse).

Tony, I think the PP 2A3 will probably yield some excellent results just as you say, bridging the gap in a big way. On the other hand, I still dont think it will ultimately yield that same quality as a totally optimized single-ended triode amp. But it sure seems to be a valid compromise and perhaps a compromise close enough for many. Then again, this area is very easy to corrupt or miss and is a MUST to experience to understand. It has less to do with transparency and detail and more to do with sounding very much like the absence of any amplifier at all with a spooky real quality that breathes life into the performance. But I will admit, it does do MUCH better with more simple works than complex. Then again, so do most amps. But given more sensitive speakers and critical component matching, even some pretty complex material can be reproduced with the better SETs.

On the other hand, densely recorded, more mainstream rock recordings from the 70s/80s are not particularly rewarded with SET and Klipsch. Here I would probably go with the most powerful Directly heated triode PP implementation I could find or even a very nice EL-84/EL-34 implementation with EXCELLENT transformers and a proven circuit.

kh

ps- I will also second the Cornwall's (Khorns/Belle etc as well) ability to do low level music justice with a proper amp.

[coda]

Most 2A3 SET amps encountered at the hi-fi salons usually require a private audition, since they don't do so well with a crowd around. The Wrights and Moondogs come across as anything but limp though, George put extra headroom in the WPA3.5 to run Class A-2 when the music demands it. But as Kelly states the Wrights bloom nicely at medium and low listening levels, the Moondogs do a better job playing at higher levels. Never had a sense either amp was fragile or running out of steam, usually wonder if the tubes are goin' to blow first!

As for listening sessions at Kelly's, they usually start out LOUD, but with some great material to sample there are special moments with that system that you rarely encounter anywhere, certainly not in any hi-fi shop I've been to, eg. HiFi Farms, etc. Thing I admire most about Kelly's system is he gots it all for so little, and the stuff may outlive us all unless a hurricane or Jeffus gets to it first. It's been good exposure to listen to his gear and use it as a benchmark for my home system, the common ground is we're both running 2A3 SET thru Cornwalls, but we take a different approach on CDP (I use a Tjoeb 99 with Amperex Orange Globe 6DJ8s).

As for vinyl, considering PAYING him for an upgrade so he can make me some nice CDRs. btw, black CD-Rs are worth trying in case it hadn't been shared at this forum earlier..

Click to download white paper <1 MB>

[sunnysal]

kelly,

I will be the first to admit running out of steam on things such as "wake up" from rage against the machine - RATM, "smoke on the water" from machine head - deep purple, "superstition" from original musiquarium - stevie wonder or "marry you" from riding with the king - b.b.king and eric clapton, is not really placing SET in their element but I DO listen to stuff like this with frequency and at high volumes and the compression was noticable in contrast with jeff's amp as well as my other amps.

re: preamps and system synergy, I agree totally with your observation however in my auditioning for an amp for my system I did not vary any components, not even the preamp. so my listening comparisons could put the focus on the various amp's performance with MY music in MY system. while the SETs sounded good at moderate volumes and even loudly with certian material they overall "ran out of steam" compressed with some of my music, in my room, with my system. my decisions were based on that.

the DHT Cary amps that were brought in to my house over the years were (I think): a 300SEI integrated, a CAD-300SE monoblock pair and a 2A3 monoblock pair cad-2A3? all sounded good but, as I said, ran out of steam when pushed hard. that is why I decided to go for jeffs PP amplifier.

I am sure it is a compromise in sound, but judging by what I have heard in my system it gets me 2/3rds (or more) of the way from the EL34 or other higher powered PP amps to the 300B or 2A3 SET amps I heard and enjoyed, which was good enough for me.

just for reference other tube amps I have had in my system to compare were HK citation II, Dynaco ST-70, Cary rocket 88s, McIntosh 240, Marantz model 8b, a couple of jolidas and VAC or two and a bottlehead paraglow (?). they all sounded good (the citation II and the McIntosh were quite memorable!) but I ened up with Jeff's amp and am quite happy.

warm regards, tony

[tillmbil]

Sunnysal, I am considering and awaiting a MC240 purchase. If you read my components I am currently using the Dynaco St70. What is your take on the difference between the St70 and the MC 240?

[sunnysal]

wow that's a tough one.

the ST-70 I heard was not modded on the input board but had some PSU mods if I remember correctly. the McIntosh was bone stock. They were not directly compared, one was in my system months after the other but here it goes...

I liked the McIntosh sound better, it seemed to have a liquidity and extension to the treble about it that the ST-70 had less of. also, I felt the McIntosh sounded more dynamic, had more punch (quickness?) than the st-70, lastly the McInosh seemed to me to have better, cleaner bass than the ST-70.

I had a MkIV at the time, which is basically a mono-blocked ST-70, I thought my MkIV had better dynamics and bass then the ST-70, perhaps due to the additional iron? but did not match the McIntosh.

the ST-70 seems to me to be a great smooth, round sounding amplifier, the McIntosh seemed to tighten up a little bass flabbiness and pump up the dyanmics a bit. for me an improvement and modernization. I also felt the treble of the McIntosh I heard was more liquid and slightly more extended.

I do not think you will unhappy at all with the McIntosh and will look forward to your comments about the sound in direct comparison with the ST-70.

perhaps someone else can chime in what they have heard re: st-70 / McIntosh

regards,

tony

[tillmbil]

Thanks Tony, Gary if you are reading, this is good news on the 240's. I also find the ST70 a little slow on the bass. I at one time had the ST202 run through the MX110 and found the Bass faster but without the punch. The ST202 highs and mid were a little cloudy and nowhere near as clear.

The MC240 should give me what I am looking for; more headroom and tighter bass.

The 299C Craig is going to rebuild will hopefully give me better staging.

[NOSValves]

I would have to agree completely with Sunny on his review of the MC240 against a basically stock ST70 and this would even somewhat hold true with a modded ST70. The MC240 has it all over the ST70 and I'm sure the Mark IV couldn't compete either but I would bet closed the gap considerably. I will also say that a bone stock Mark III would never hang with the MC240. Now I first hand side by side compared my Highly modified Mark III's and they clearly trounced the stock MC240 in every respect except shear weight that amp is heavy as all get out !! Your soon to be rebuilt 299C will give the MC240 a descent run for the money. The MC240 will still have a good margin more punch but the 299C will throw out way more Bloom (Kelly description ) or soundfield/Detail then the MC240. I truly think there is much to be done under the hood of a MC240 that could bring great results. I'm pretty sure in the near future we will get a chance to find out

The stock MC240 was the thickest silky tubey sounding amp I have ever heard to date almost to the point where its annoying.

Craig

[tillmbil]

Craig, interesting post, I appreciate the input. After I compare the ST70 to the MC240 I will have to send one of them your way.

All that is left is for me to buy a pair of set amps and I can compare it all. NOT going there, I missed an hour of work today chasing down the latest CW set amp debate. Wow, all that for 2.5 wpc.

Just got my Hereseys today. Man are they small compared to my Forte II's and CW's. Can't wait to play them. They are small enough to keep out of the wife's eyesight. I will have to play SS gear through them until the 299 comes in.

Loggins and Messina is sounding great on the MX110/Dynaco ST70/Technics SL-0300 right now as I post. Next for me is the Garymd MC240 and either a MMF-5 or 7.

[garymd]

I'm still waiting to hear Bill. He didn't return my last call but I was informed that he still hadn't finished working on it. If he takes too long you may want to start searching yourself although they can be very pricey as you already know.

Craig,

I'll be receiving those things by next week some time. Let the transformation begin!

[garymd]

BTW Bill, no shortage of bass punch with that 240. Headroom through the roof!

[Guy Landau]

YOU GUYS PROBABLY DON'T UNDERSTAND. SO HERE IT IS ONCE AGAIN:

SET's ONLY.

NO PUSH-PULL

and no debates which one is better.

KAPISH?

[NOSValves]

Guy,

Tell me did you somehow find a way to turn your age back to about 10 ???

[sunnysal]

william somehow I missed what speakers you are planning to use...with hereseys...those speaks are pretty darn bass shy, the ST-70 slight "bloat" may actually be complementary to the heresies. with chorus or cornwalls you would, I suspect, prefer the McIntosh...more fuel for the fire...if you have anyway to convince the wife to let you stick with chorus or cornwall DO IT. regards, tony

[tillmbil]

Tony, I am trying to reach that 2 channel euphoria in my Den. It currently has the items listed under my signature in the room. I will be adding the MC240.

My HT is another room full of Klipsch with Forte II mains. All SS gear though: One Yamaha RXV-992 for preamp, (1) Yamaha M80 Fronts, M65 rears, and MA500 Marrantz center. Dalquist 12inch woofer sub. Mitz 55" HDTV and the list goes on.

The Herseys are for the garage, and I await the 299c for power.

The garage also holds the PA2000, Sherwood surround integrated amp, and EQ that drives the 4 pool speakers.