Mallette Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Well, I asked for it. In fact, I was looking for exactly this crowd, though I really didn't expect them to be THIS tough. First, let me say I heard some truly phenomenal speakers at Texas DIY 2003, both from GR Research and the attendees. GR's "Delusio" model, about 1.5 cubic feet of stunning lacquered maple, was incredibly detailed and transparent when connected to a Dynaco SCA-35 that had been rebuilt anew using only the transformers and chassis. The rest of it was all Gary Dodd of Dallas' Dodd Audio at only 400.00. Worth checking out... OTOH, the material was almost totally uniform and alien to me. About the only performer I'd ever heard of was Norah Jones. These folks are homogenous as binars. Oh, there was a CD of Fleetwood Mac "Rumors" which sounded even worse on the 7' tall Alpha Line Sources with 120pc Dodd flagship amps than the original vinyl, which has always been my winner for worst production values of any rock album to go multiple platinum. There was no classical, no mainstream jazz or big band, no pipe organs, no piano solos, no nothing but whatever this niche genre (which includes Ms. Jones) they listen to. It is demanding, but so same-same it's hard to tell just how some of these speakers would have fared with more mainstream stuff. I can say they are good enough to where I could often spot every mix...something that always bothers me and re-enforces my own "no mixer" philosophy. All told, there were about 30 people there, all intimately familiar with each other. I felt as though I had crashed a frat party. One from Boston, another from Chattanooga with his son (great kid!), and one from Spokane, WA. The sponsor said there had been 50 the year before, but he prefered it this way. I could tell... I kept my mouth totally shut about Klipsch and my own philosophy. I wasn't there to prosyletize, but to learn. However, I could get the gist of their thinking from the one time it came up. I told them about my friend Ron (lonelobo) picking up the Marantz Model 5's for 50.00, and they freaked. Dodd claimed he could get 20k for them in HK if they were completely unmodified. Anyway, I went on to say that the same week he picked up a pair of Cornwalls for 20.00. "Overpriced" was the immediate comment with general laughter and concurrence. You see the mindset I was dealing with... What did I learn? 1. I certainly wished I had loaded more music or taken a CD drive so I could have loaded some of theirs. I really did not anticipate the narrow niche of material that would be available. I guess when you go to a Hatfield/McCoy reunion you should take your own food unless you like three meals a day of beans and cornbread. 2. Have at least a day to experiment with speaker placement, especially with these types of speaker that are VERY placement critical. If it is tough to get a stereo pair just right, then it is at least 8 times as hard to get a 4 channel set up the way it needs to be. While several commented that the Spankers presence was very real when the crowd was loud, poor placement of the rears as well as poorly matched levels really ruined the soundfield most of the time. By the time I set up, I pretty much felt like an outsider and was a bit reluctant to take charge and mess with things. Also, I really am not very familiar with this type of speaker anyway, so I just left it to Danny of GR Research who basically just stuck them in the back of the room. 3. Choose material carefully. After having listend to their tastes, I probably could have done a lot better at picking Spankers cuts closer to thier likes. However, I think I still didn't realize just how biased they were. As for myself, I don't pay much attention to material in judging a system unless it is so alien I don't know what it is supposed to sound like. Though no consumer of rap and hip hop, I will quite readily listen to it if it is of excellent quality if that is all that is available to judge a system...and it won't affect my judgement. About a third of these folks walked 30 seconds into the music, and (IMHO), it was not the source but the genre. 4. Bring a TT. A couple of guys were very impressed with a 24/88.2 transfer of the Jan and Dean analog/analog super disc. However, they had never heard it and said they couldn't fully judge whether it was compressed or not (they weren't qualified enough to understand there was nothing in the process to compress it...and I wasn't about to argue). About half the group were total analog fans...but GR provided only CD, not even a SACD or DVD-A, muchless a TT. In summary, I learned more about speaker measurement and design in 24 hours than in my previous lifetime. I became sold on ribbon tweeters...incredibly fast and detailed just like ribbon mics. What a surprise! ;-) As to the MBS-5, I felt quite good that not a person made a negative comment. One older guy (even older than me) made a commitment to buy if and when available to transfer his 78's. He said he had been looking for something exactly like this for decades. As mentioned above, several were quite momentarily impressed with the soundfield. That's a lot from close-minded 2 channel types who listen to nothing but Norah Jones and friends. With proper balance and placement, I could have held them and done more good. All were very impressed with the appearance and silence of the machine and loved the air mouse. IMHO, very successful. However, I am think I am ready for a bit more controlled circumstances and open-minded audiophiles. Even Wichita Falls was better than I remembered it. Lots of good memories (except for the tornado of Terrible Tuesday, '79) and a superb meal at Pioneer #8, which looked and smelled just like it did when I left in 1980. THE place to go for real Texas food. A very interesting weekend, indeed. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Nice write up Dave. Ribbons may be fast and detailed, but what about macrodynamics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted October 23, 2003 Author Share Posted October 23, 2003 Not familiar with the term, Dean. Do you mean width of dynamics? If so, I can't comment, as I don't think there was anything played with more than 20db range. Well, wait. There was this interesting drum stuff from a group they said was the green guys from the old, disgusting, Pentium III commercials. They had a bass drum about 15 feet in diameter. It was impressive, and the response of the ribbons was like I said, lightning fast and extremely transparent. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Yes, you've got it. Slam, whack, life-likeness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted October 23, 2003 Author Share Posted October 23, 2003 OK, they had it in spades. See http://www.gr-research.com/lucidity/diluceo.htm for details. The link to tweeter details only took me to a nice blue, blank gradient screen. Perhaps there is more info elsewhere, but these things made my ears sing. One thing I didn't put in the original post...these guys are 90 degrees, not 180 from us. Yes, they use reflex (generally) suspension, and what I heard was "you cannot have too much power regardless of efficiency", and they are pretty close minded. However, half were analog, and only vacuum tube amps were present. Gary Dodd claimed he was going to build a 300 watt (not a misprint!) SET amp. Said the tubes would be over a foot high and require isolation and cooling. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Hello: It is amazing what one goes through at what is supposed to be an open minded seminar/conference. It usually takes about forty five (45) minutes to find what the hidden agenda or real product promotion is. You give a very well done review for a grizzled old Recording Engineer. One of the glaring points you make is the number of analog fans present with no real analog to listen to. Also the need for compression on anything Jan and Dean is quite amusing. The Fleetwood Mac going Platinum was in part, IMHO, the songs. But to use for a FULL demonstration of amplifier or speakers is a stetch. I get more towrad the ending of Doctor My Eyes by Jackson Browne listening for the individual bass noting, drum, guitar and the recocgnizable to me , nasal voice of Jackson - I have a nasal quality so I can identify. Well written Dave, glad you were able to feel that you learned something from the "clique." Win dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted October 23, 2003 Author Share Posted October 23, 2003 >Also the need for compression on anything Jan and Dean is quite amusing. Well, if I understood him correctly, he was assuming my process would or might have introduced compression. With 110db dynamic range available, I don't think so. However, he had no comprehension (that was obvious) of the process and it showed. He, like all of them, were just suspicious of anything outside their universe. I hope I didn't sound like they were ogres. They weren't. Just sort of like wandering into Wickes, Arkansas in a business suit and Mercedes. It just might take a while to establish common ground... BTW, that J&D album is one of the finest technical pieces I've ever heard. Whether you like the music or not, the recording and pressing are awesome. 16 track analog all the way. Even the mix doesn't bother me. Real image, probably due to recording all parts at once with mix for touch up. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 very interesting review, I too was quite impressed with the GR Dilceos and enjoyed your comments on the show, thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 ---------------- On 10/23/2003 12:24:43 PM Mallett wrote: >Also the need for compression on anything Jan and Dean is quite amusing. Well, if I understood him correctly, he was assuming my process would or might have introduced compression. With 110db dynamic range available, I don't think so. However, he had no comprehension (that was obvious) of the process and it showed. He, like all of them, were just suspicious of anything outside their universe. I hope I didn't sound like they were ogres. They weren't. Just sort of like wandering into Wickes, Arkansas in a business suit and Mercedes. It just might take a while to establish common ground... BTW, that J&D album is one of the finest technical pieces I've ever heard. Whether you like the music or not, the recording and pressing are awesome. 16 track analog all the way. Even the mix doesn't bother me. Real image, probably due to recording all parts at once with mix for touch up. Dave ---------------- Hi Dave: I agree with the quality and I am a Jan and Dean fan. As I wrote my former reply, other than for fitting the music onto a side of an lp, I really could not think of a song of theirs that I thought needed compression - with a dynamic range as you state the capability of, there would be no reason whatsoever for compression. If you feel I took any offense or put down of Jan and Dean far from it. Somehow it would be nice to be able to present a piece of equipment to truly open minded people with no pre-conceived ideas, expectations or notions. The Audio World would be better off for it. As stated, a great review and an insight as to how things are put on, My 45 minute comment went to two (2) areas - Audio and Crime Prevention. With each there is the hot topic, although there is not one stated and Conferences/seminars/shows are usually billed as "open" with many areas or topics. With Crime Prevention, a Conference attended stating "numerous area of new technoly and ideals" turned out to be equally divided between Road Rage and Spousal Abuse. I think you and I are on the same page. Though with some ribbon tweeters was distortion questioned? I have heard superb and the bottom of the bucket. In quality - superb. Win dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted October 23, 2003 Author Share Posted October 23, 2003 >If you feel I took any offense or put down of Jan and Dean far from it. Not at all. As you may be able to tell from the thread, I think I've learned not to judge what is going on in someone else's head unless I a very, very sure and there is a good reason to do so. While J&D were formative influences in my teen years, I wouldn't run out and buy any today...except this one. If it were harmonica and accordion playing Great Military Marches of the Far East I would buy it if it demonstrated some extraordinary quality of execution. That is what was different about that crowd. It appeared that if it's not Norah Jones (or similar), it's crap. Luckily, it is not catching. The Klipsch Forum, with all our flaws, is a bastion of open minds compared to others. I didn't even make a mental note of the forum they hang out in... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Hello: Dave - sent you an e. Inaddition to what I noted in my e, I always keep in mind two (2) thoughts: One (1) my Mother taught me: You cannot say you don't like a type of music of composer until you've listened to it, tried to feel and think of the reasons for writing. After you've done that, THEN you can say you like or don't like. The other is my own. Listen for the recording quality, tecnniques, possible identification of musical and recording equipment used. And a listen for something new established in the recording style or equipment. Win dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Ha! I grew up on J&D in my teen years as well, though my taste has now changed over the years. Which LP are you referring to? I do have a few in my collection and maybe I need to give them a spin (after a thorough cleaning), you got me curious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted October 23, 2003 Author Share Posted October 23, 2003 Audio Encores AE1-1003. Highly recommended for J&D freaks or anyone into very high quality vinyl. BTW, in case you didn't get the message, it's great to be home again... Also, though it may seem ridiculous, I couldn't help but wonder how those ribbons would sound with K'horns. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Ha! bring em over! I have the original Liberty label records of J&D... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted October 23, 2003 Author Share Posted October 23, 2003 This one was made in 1980 as kind of a last hurrah. They list all equipment, including mics and the fact that the studio had all wood floors. Pretty striking for good ol' sixties happy face music. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted October 23, 2003 Author Share Posted October 23, 2003 This one was made in 1980 as kind of a last hurrah. They list all equipment, including mics and the fact that the studio had all wood floors. Pretty striking for good ol' sixties happy face music. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Dave, Great to read your posts. Been missing your comments around here and had wondered how things had gone. If they didn't really have anything bad to say about the hardware you demonstrated, then I would also say it was a success. Realizing there must also be a zillion folks with your name, you don't happen to know Nanci Griffith do you? Saw a name that matched yours on one of her CDs, and knowing she's from Texas..... Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted October 23, 2003 Author Share Posted October 23, 2003 Hate to say it, but I am not familiar with the name. My recording activities and equipment development are largely related to outgo, not income. There is always hope... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 She's is a folkie, kinda. Plays acousic guitar. One of her older albums is called 'Other voices / Other rooms' On this one she does all other writers music, and not her own. Tom Paxton, Gordon Lightfoot, John Prine, Bob Dylan, etc. There is a Dave Mallett on the last cut "Wimoweh." Originally done by the Weavers. THis one has all sorts of folks on it, and is kinda funny. Some of the original artists perform with her on this one. Too bad, the list of famous folks I actually know is getting smaller. Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted October 23, 2003 Author Share Posted October 23, 2003 Hey, I'll bet I know that Dave Mallett. From the description of the music, sounds like it could be a Dave Mallett from Vermont or thereabouts I corresponded with briefly a few years ago due to some email mixup. He has a website and seems to have a pretty good following in folksy music. All Mallett(e)s are related and come from France. One branch went to England with Norman, the other stayed in France. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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