How can I improve stereo imaging /soundstage in my small room.

[Pistol Pete]

Yeah I have pretty much a worst case scenario here except for the fact that nothing (tv etc) is in between my main speakers and I can toe them in some and they are not exactly in the corners.

Speakers are Klipsch RF-3IIs for mains and they are my only concern, HT use is fine but stereo performance leaves something to be desired. Being that they are more forward sounding then my last speakers it seems its alot harder to get a good image out of them. Amp is a Yamaha RX-V3300.

Its like everything is everywhere except in a single sweet spot in the room and frankly I am not into sitting in the middle of my sofa, Id like a decent sound if I sit anywhere on the sofa.

Room is 10' long x 8.5' wide, sofa is against the wall to get as far away from my 66" wide screen as possible.

Moving the sofa in or the speakers out any more than a few inches is not an option.

Speakers are toed in and about 6' apart if I measure the space between them, actual seating is at about 9' .

Changing the toe and playing around with what little room I have for adjusting the speaker locations has helped some but it would be nice to get a little more holographic type image out of them over a wider area.

My last speaker threw a very wide soundstage and image and it felt very holographic but those are characteristics of laid back speakers.

What are some things I can do?

BTW I do love the RF-3s as they are its just they are so much clearer than what I am used to, my ears love them for their clarity but I do miss some of characteristics of my old speakers too.

I do know the RF-3IIs image like made if they are in a huge room because I auditioned them in a very large room and they were just sweet as can be. Unfotunatly I do not have such a room at my disposal.

[NOSValves]

With music I would guess your problem mostly is your Yamaha RX-V3300 that would be my guess ! My HT reciever is horrible with music with my RF-3's

Craig

[Pistol Pete]

Its definately not my receiver because I auditioned them on an RX-V3300 and they sounded great...the problem is my room and its size period. I was hoping to get some advice from others with small rooms who know of some remedys.

[whell]

Pete:

If the speakers are only 6' apart, and the listening position is 9' from the speakers, then that could point to the problem. Ideally, the listening position would form an "equalateral triangle": with two points being your speakers, and one point being your listening position. This placement is described in the Klipsch Owners Guide that accompanies the Reference Series speakers.

Moving the listening position closer to the speakers, or move the speakers further apart than 6' is the right answer, though you describe this as not feasable.

You might have tried this already, but you could try changing the toe-in angle as follows: Lets assume that you've arranged the toe in angle so that each speaker is pointed at your left and right ear respectively. Try gradually changing the angle so that the horn points outward from your ears. Try moving the speakers to they point at your shoulders first, then maybe the arms of the chair. See if this helps at all.

[kjohnsonhp]

I perceive the sound debth is from pulling the speakers 2'-3' from the walls--try it just for a moment and that will put you about 6' away, too (equalateral triangle).

I have measured the distance from my nose to each speaker to make it as exact as possible and I sit in the exact center line between the speakers. I also toe the speakers at the rear of my head with attention paid to each speaker toeing the same angle.

Try a variety of music titles to hear how the imaging varies from recording to recording. Try a mono recording like early jazz and you should have nothing but a phantom center. The first years of stereo put a lot of hard left or right which provides little phantom imaging.

My hot rod ST-70 tube amp has helped the imaging a lot vs an AVR...especially in debth.

Klipsch are a "front row" sound so don't expect an image to start behind the speakers against the wall like some "5th row" sounding speakers.

I'm not sure big horns are the best at completely disappearing like little monitor cone speakers.

[dubai2000]

I agree with the above given suggestion of changing the toe-in angle in such a way that the speakers might actually point straight ahead. I have done that with the Heresy in my study and it worked wonders. Depending on the recording, musicians play in front of/behind the speakers. In that setup I get soundstages which make the placement of instuments/singers not very difficult. Good luck experimenting.

Wolfram

[Deang]

"It's like everything is everywhere except in a single sweet spot in the room and frankly I am not into sitting in the middle of my sofa, I'd like a decent sound if I sit anywhere on the sofa."

"Room is 10' long x 8.5' wide, sofa is against the wall to get as far away from my 66" wide screen as possible. Moving the sofa in or the speakers out any more than a few inches is not an option. Speakers are toed in and about 6' apart if I measure the space between them, actual seating is at about 9' ."

What's screwing you up is a 66" inch screen in a room the size of shoebox, and since you can't, or are unwilling to move the speakers for optimum sound -- you are basically stuck with what you have.

One thing you might try is actually NOT toeing the speakers in -- and have them facing straight forward. Try to get them at least a foot away from the side walls, and as far from the back wall as you are willing.

[hwatkins]

I'll go a step further than Dean on this. No (or at least a very, very few) room is perfect and yes, the Klipsch sound is forward. Time and again I have piddled with position and in our odd shaped environments and I find imaging seems to get better near a corner, slightly (if not a lot) raised from the floor and no toe in. Yes, this flies in the face of many other posts, but I also did not want a very small sweet spot. I find that if the highs are coming from well above my ears, the imaging is really nice.

Just a humble, undereducated opinion that takes direction from my ears. Proceed with caution if you misinterpret this as advice.

[Colin]

try moving the sofa foward too, the reflections off the back wall also affect the sound, also check the phase on the amp - this makes a very big difference with imaging, other than that, you are kinda stuck with what you have, unless you add a thirds channel speaker above or below your TV...

[mark1101]

I don't mean to sound like a jerk but...

I assume you mean 66" diagonal when you say "wide". I was shopping at Best Buy and discussed these monster size screens with the salesman. He said there was a rule of thumb that the optimal viewing distance was some amount of times the diagonal, like 3-4 times. I can't remember. I do remember that the 60+" diagonals optimized at around 20 ft. That would mean that you TV viewing is way less than optimal too.

Sorry. Didn't they tell you that when you bought the TV? I could easily see that the really big screens improved significantly as you stepped back.

So don't worry about the sound, everything's messed up

[amonteiro]

he uses a projector though. I think he would need about 1.5 times the diagonal but i might be mistaken

[Klipschfoot]

What is your listening level? If you are after "live" sound, it may be hard to achieve with your small room dimensions. Almost everyone lives with a compromise or two unless you have a devoted listening room. (The only "devoted room" I know of is at PS Audio.) Check with http://www.decware.com/acintro2.htm for some tips. Your rear wall may well play a major role in ruining the sound if there is no sound absorption on it.

[maxg]

On the subject of toe-in you can try overly toeing them in too.

With the Heresies in my room I used to run them so that their planes crossed in front of my listening position (in other words massively toed in). This provided amazing depth in my setup and really helped focus the image - which is what I think you are asking for.

Subject to how close the speakers are to the side walls you should find that the width of the soundstage wont decrease too noticably (at least that is what I found).

I think a lot of playing around is in order. A lot of other possibilities spring to mind on soundstaging, for instance you may find that using a sub-woofer and passing only signals over 80Hz to the speakers improves the staging too (not sure why - if you have one - try it).

There is also the issue of room treatments to consider. Uneven sound reflection and absorption characteristics can play havoc with stereo in a small room.

Start with toe-in, its much cheaper, and see what happens.

[D-MAN]

Room reflections are probably playing havoc with the imaging, I assume from such a small space. More than likely the imaging is being smothered by reflections and room modes.

I would recommend investing in some room treatments, such as sound-absorbing panels, etc. It helped my situation alot. Try hanging a couple of bankets on the two side walls and then reposition the speakers and see the difference before investing in some panels. You may also find that the "forward" presentation will probably go away. Good luck - it has taken me literally years to get a handle on this problem.

DM