dgb Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 First let me commend Klipsch employee Greg for his great service in getting my replacement diaphram. Very nice guy, got the problem identified and I got my replacement less than 72 hours after making the call. Kudos. If only every company had such service. Now the Pioneer 563a SACD/DVD player. $170 at Ciruit City. I will say it has a lot functionality, nice slim design. Now to the sound. Got Peter Gabriel 4 and Police Outlandos D'Amour SACDs. The sound was very clear, crisp and relly nice bass response compared to the regular CDs I have of the same titles. Heard a lot more music that had been hidden away and the dynamics were great. Part of this I'll attribute to the remastering job, part to the format. The sound was "hot" and somewhat fatiguing. The sound stage was not any better than my NAD, actually it was worse. Pretty flat and not a real wide dispersion left to right. The regular CDs I played sounded good, but again not much in the way of "imaging". For $170 it is a very, very good CD player, I'll give it that, but not in the class of the slightly more pricy ($500-$750) mid-fi offerings from NAD, Nakamichi and similar companies. Probably to be expected. I'll probably listen a little while longer and decide wheter to return it or not. Have to decide if the titles that are out there are worth keeping it around. The entire Peter Gabriel/Police discography (and probably Pink Floyd) is certainly an enticement to keep it. NADs HDCD player blows it away, but at $300+ more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 I'm assuming you did some homework on this so if you don'e mind, I'd like to pick your brain a little. I'm also trying to decide which route to go. If you go SACD, how does that blend with a 2-channel system? If you go HDCD, I guess it's not an issue. How was the video side of the pioneer? Progressive scan I presume? I may go that route just for my HT so I can play some 5.1 music and get something more substantial for 2-channel. Thanks for any help you can provide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 There is a good thread in the Audiokarma tube forum under a SET amp discussion that addresses some of this. I have said it before, the latest processor, including SACD, sometimes doesnt make up for other mediocre areas in a low cost CDP. I thought the lower price SACD/DVD-A players to be so disappointing, I was shocked. This forum believes otherwise on the whole. No need for them to come running. I will sample a SCD-777ES in the next few weeks and see how that goes. But the analog sections, power supply, filtering etc are really letting down the medium in lower cost players in my view. There is some REALLY interesting discussion going on concerning the latest 1x sample, ZERO oversampling, ZERO digital filter, ZERO analog filter DACs from the likes of AUDIO NOTE and SAKURA SYSTEMS. Some I trust are saying some very good things and I hope to hear this in the future as the Planet as a VERY good transport. I have been avoiding digital separates due to the problems with jitter and the dreaded digital IC. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 I bought a Sony C222ES SACD changer a few weeks ago after much consideration about which hi-rez format to go with. While it's not clear if either SACD or DVD-A will every really take off, I'm very happy with the sound of most of the SACD's I've bought. So much so, I'll probably be sending the 222 to www.sacdmods.com for upgrades very soon. In my system, most of the SACD's sound substancially better than their Redbook cd counterparts. They have more detail, presence, bass and are easier to listen to. However, due to room constraints and the fact that I almost never just sit in front of my speakers, I cannot speak much for soundstage and imaging. Those 2 aspects of sound quality don't have alot of value for me. I sure hope SACD catches on and far more titles become available. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshnich Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 I have a Sony SCD 222ES that is currently on its way to SACDmods for upgrades. Ill let you know my impressions when I get it back in a couple of weeks. In addition , I purchased a lower cost Philips SACD/DVD/CD changer (795SA) for use in my bedroom system. While the 222 is away I have the Philips hooked up to my main system. The sound of the Philips is very good but it is no where near the player that the Sony is. The Sony, for both SACD and redbook is terrific. I have a number of titles for which I have vinyl, redbook and SACD. ( BTW I hope to avoid that in the future!) The vinyl and the SACD are so close that I have to say given the option I would go SACD as the format of choice. I would not be saying that if my experience was limitied to the Philips. The other issue with the Philips is that you need to have it hooked up to a TV to view the menu options! quite the hassle if your using it as a two channel SACD deck! Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Kelly, I've also been told the low cost units are junk. That's why I've avoided them thus far. I do need to upgrade my DVD player to progressive scan but I need something seperate for 2-channel. I was just wondering if it was worth buying one of these cheaper units for my HT so I can listen to SACD if I want. My 2-channel system needs something better, I just don't know what that will be yet. My friend at the vintage audio repair shop is trying to talk me into the soon to come newest Denon CDP which he will get me at cost if I want it. I'll have to look into that one. Thanks for the info. Chris, Soundstaging/imaging means everything to me in 2-channel with my set-up so that will be a major consideration. My cheapo technics CDP does a good job for the time being but I certainly want something better. BTW - The tape is in the mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Too bad. Soundstaging and imaging in a properly setup system is one of the hallmarks of great tube amps and a good SET in particular. I admit, without good TONE and harmonic richness, it's a no win situation but bringing in the staging and imaging is one of the amazing pleasures of a great tube system properly set up. There does seem to be a WIDE opinion difference on the low cost CDP, SACD included. I have not heard the SCD-777ES yet but will at my friend's house (arefriendselectric) or HERE if he drags the beast this way come Thanksgiving. kh ps- Gary, if you have a chance, try sampling the latest from Audio Note like the DAC 1.x - there will be a new model coming out soon with ZERO filtering in the analog or digital sections. Some really interesting things are beings said about this machine and the Sakura - been sharing some emails on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 ---------------- On 11/3/2003 12:55:36 PM dgb wrote: The sound was very clear, crisp and relly nice bass response compared to the regular CDs I have of the same titles. Heard a lot more music that had been hidden away and the dynamics were great. Part of this I'll attribute to the remastering job, part to the format. The sound was "hot" and somewhat fatiguing. The sound stage was not any better than my NAD, actually it was worse. Pretty flat and not a real wide dispersion left to right. The regular CDs I played sounded good, but again not much in the way of "imaging". ---------------- Most of what you are describing: hidden away music, dynamics, hot, fatiguing--is the remastering. There is absolutely nothing in the SACD format itself or SACD players that would increase dynamics, make it hotter, or make it more fatiguing. Depends on what you mean by hidden away music whether that could be a format matter or not. If you're talking about more air, more overtones, more realistic, then yes. But if it's something like you're hearing an instrument clearer or a vocal clearer, that's the remastering. It gets kind of difficult with words describing how something is better. SACD itself doesn't boost bass or treble or clarity, but it can make all of these areas *better*. Personally I enjoy SACDs much more than CDs. But it's never for flash or "sexy" reasons. It's because SACD sounds right. You may not be into classical music, but I will submit that I have *never* heard a CD that sounds better than *any* release by Channel Classics or Pentatone. I am really looking forward to Mercury Living Presence SACDs, starting this month. These will be released in three-channel, as they were originally recorded, and will be the first time anyone outside of Mercury circles has ever heard them better than the 2-channel mixdown tapes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 For an interesting teaser, check out page 3 and 4 of this document: http://www.audioperfectionist.com/PDF%20files/journal9excerpt.pdf This fellow is strongly in the camp of even a cheap SACD player allows for a more emotional listening experience than does an expensive CD player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 ---------------- On 11/3/2003 1:53:04 PM mobile homeless wrote: Too bad. Soundstaging and imaging in a properly setup system is one of the hallmarks of great tube amps and a good SET in particular. I admit, without good TONE and harmonic detail, it's a no win situation but bringing in the staging and imaging is one of the amazing pleasures of a great tube system properly set up. There does seem to be a WIDE opinion difference on the low cost CDP, SACD included. I have not heard the SCD-777ES yet but will at my friend's house (arefriendselectric) or HERE if he drags the beast this way come Thanksgiving. kh ---------------- Kelly, Music listening at my house is usually during dinner or while helping the kids with homework or doing some other task that doesn't allow stting down in front of the "sweet spot". I guess I could try paying more attention while reading, but every time I sit down to read in the house I end up turning up the volume and going out on the patio to read. Go figure. I guess I'm just a poor critical listener. At the same time, I'm probably understating how much soundstaging and imaging I do notice. You're right, when it all comes together (recording, performance, equipment) it is pretty amazing. My garage system (Fisher X-101, Dynaco A-25's, Arcam MCD, Sansui TU-717) images like crazy. But that's partially due to the fact that I often stand or sit right in the sweet spot while working at the bench. Chris PS Glad to see you're back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 And if you REALLY care about emotional involvement, then THIS format is better than either CD or SACD! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Allan, I ultimately agree 100%. My own version of vinyl emotion below Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Allan, I've said this to you before, that is just about the coolest looking rig I've ever seen. That shiny, black, Blue Note sittin' on top just takes the cake. Chris Here's my vinyl rig. Sounds great, looks ok too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Vinyl is only a part of the picture (mostly the past). If one regards music and musicians as alive today then CDs (or whatever is available) are what is happening when you cannot be at every live performance around the world. Emotion lies in ones ability to comprehend music. C&S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 I'd agree then throw in a picture of my thorens and technics but I'm technically challenged in that area, especially at work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 C&S, I still buy all my indie label material on vinyl and it's BRAND new. Vinyl is not dead as a format for new music at all. Latest purchases for vinyl in last two weeks: Guided by Voices Robert Pollard Mogwai Mary Timony Belle & Sebastian Cat Power Cornelius ALL ON VINYL. kh ps- Fini, that was your best post to date... Looks like an early AR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 "I still buy all my indie label material on vinyl and it's BRAND new. Vinyl is not dead as a format for new music at all." It is for 99.99% of today's music. I find great merit in much music that is occurring presently and it is not coming out on vinyl. Just buying the <.01% that is produced on vinyl today would keep me in the dark about the other >99.99%. Talk to a musician. C&S ps. fini, congratulations on finally getting your new turntable spinning. I know it was kind of complicated, but between the stylus scale and the spoke wrench it looks like you have it. Have you tried an 8 penny galvanized? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 "This fellow is strongly in the camp of even a cheap SACD player allows for a more emotional listening experience than does an expensive CD player." I can't seem to get the link to work. So a cheap SACD player will play redbook CD's better than a expensive CD player? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 ---------------- On 11/3/2003 3:08:02 PM Clipped and Shorn wrote: It is for 99.99% of today's music. I find great merit in much music that is occurring presently and it is not coming out on vinyl. Just buying the <.01% that is produced on vinyl today would keep me in the dark about the other >99.99%. Talk to a musician. C&S ---------------- Are you doing your music shopping in any other place than Walmart from time to time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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