sfogg Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 " Can someone explain what is meant by acoustic watts in this instance?" Acoustic watts is the actual POWER of the music in the room. If you had a 100% efficient speaker 1 watt of power into it would equal 1 watt of power out. Of course this doesn't even remotely happen. In the above you have 60 watts of power into three speakers to get 5 acoustic watts of power in the room. From that you could roughly figure that the three speakers together have an efficency of about 8% in converting electrical energy into acoustical energy when taking into consideration to size of the room. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Stated another way, dBSPL is a measure of acoustic power, expressed logarithmically. Acoustic watts are just a linear expression of the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Parrot, It's amazing how little you learned from that site. You choose to single out a piece of "marketing hype", instead of learning from the results of actual listening experiences of experienced individuals, in particular those with high efficiency Klipsch and low watt apmplifiers. You are quite sad with your efforts to hold on to your old tired paradigm. Typical spin doctor efforts. I would encourage members to go to the site posted by Jef to find more information about high efficiency Klipsch speakers than marketing hype ads. Read the very first article posted on that page. Find out what he's not telling you. Parrot is a charter member of the "MISINFORMATION SOCIETY"! Shame on you Parrot. Klipsch out. PS. Marketing hype is NOT the news. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Deano, But that's if you want peaks of 115db. That's freaking loud! What if you just want peaks of 100db? Sounding aweful girlish there buddy !! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 ---------------- On 11/25/2003 4:07:19 PM bclarke421 wrote: Stated another way, dBSPL is a measure of acoustic power, expressed logarithmically. Acoustic watts are just a linear expression of the same thing. ---------------- That may have been an oversimplification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Hummm... and I thought basic terminology had pretty much been nailed down some time back... From a variety of web sources (all credible, such a JBL, FCC, IES and others) we get... "...One acoustic watt of power is equal to 112dB measured in an anecohic chamber at 1 meter from the sound source..." "...One acoustic watt is equivalent to 107.5 dBSPL at four feet from an omnidirectional source..." "...1 Acoustic Watt: at 1 meter, radiating spherically from a point source = 109dB SPL..." "...At 20deg C and 30inches of pressure, a point source radiating 1 acoustic watt will yield an SPL of 109.3 dB one meter away from the source for frequencies where the wavelength is small compared to 1 meter..." So, to sum up, it would seem that 1 acoustic watt is *FRIGGIN' LOUD* HTH Ray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted November 25, 2003 Author Share Posted November 25, 2003 Mr. Jazman, I skimmed through the article you refer to. What it is is some hi-fi dudes sitting down to have an audition of equipment. They are particularly impressed with the La Scalas. They *claim* that their 2 watt amp played "Also Sprach Zarathustra" (AKA Theme to 2001: A Space Odyssey) to thrilling levels. Only someone delusional would make his first choice for playing an extremely dynamic symphonic work a 2-watter. Gimme a break. I don't doubt that these hi-fi dudes were so thrilled to hear a truly high-efficiency speaker that they lost their objectivity for a while and figured they could do anything now with low watt amps. They let their enthusiasm cloud their judgment about what they were hearing, that's all. Jazman, if you would be so good, please explain to me how a 2-watt amp could give the listener drawn in that ad the benefit of 115db peaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Paul, Just imagine what those audio-pile "dudes" were used to hearing from their two watts. The Lascalas were probably an enlightenment to them. Imagine if they had auditioned Khorns instead. The rooms floor would have been sticky. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeJohns Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 ---------------- On 11/25/2003 3:26:46 PM mike stehr wrote: I've decided that you are a f*cking idiot! ---------------- Advice you may reject if you wish. There is no clue at all to whom you are directing your tirade. Have a Blessed Thanksgiving. Mike Johns Boston, MA An edition - If you have 100 db the magnitude needed to accomplish a raising of the level to 103 db in the area the human ear differentiates the level of sound, you must increase the amplifier level by doubling the signal to the speaker. 1w, 2w, 4w, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 A Futterman OTL? Which one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeJohns Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 ---------------- On 11/25/2003 5:35:01 PM painful reality wrote: A Futterman OTL? Which one? ---------------- Julias Futterman H3AA, purchased at auction. Quite a pleasant amplifier. I believe only a few were made. Correct me if I am wrong on number. Mike Johns Boston, MA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 ---------------- Julias Futterman H3AA, purchased at auction. Quite a pleasant amplifier. I believe only a few were made. Correct me if I am wrong on number. Mike Johns Boston, MA ---------------- H3aa is correct. You have the version using 6LF6 or 6MH6? These where really nice amps on the right speakers. Quite collectable now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Paul, you may consider chilling out in regard to pushing your push-pull paradigm. Having digested the entire bank of records in that original reference post (burp, thanks,)and knowing a fair amount about both PWK and audio amplification development, it is relevant to reference PWK's most prevalent quote - to paraphrase, "What the world needs is a good five watt tube amp." The khorn, and Klipsch's other horn speakers, were designed to first provide maximum efficiency and secondly minimize distortion. PWK mentioned the two khorns with a Belle center as a great system, with a twenty watt summed center channel for the Belle. He engineered a summed passive center channel signal and recommended using a mono amp to drive this signal for the center Belle. With this system, you could reproduce IN ITS ENTIRETY the dynamic peaks and output of a symphony orchestra. This is not something I would recommend you strive to achieve, however. You can come darn close, however, even with a SET amp in the right conditions. Many of the forum members work on the listening room environment so they don't need to flog their amps, or don't need high watt output amps, to realize adequate listening levels. It may take a subtle level of reasoning to realize, rather than needing to ADD 10 dB of headroom at the push-pull end of the spectrum, you can SUBTRACT 10 dB from the background noise floor, and spend your money on quality without needing volume. The paradigm that you choose to operate within is tailoring your responses, Paul, and that is where feather ruffling is occurring. That, and citing or quoting references and pulling information out of context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 ---------------- On 11/25/2003 4:37:32 PM paulparrot wrote: Mr. Jazman, I skimmed through the article you refer to. What it is is some hi-fi dudes sitting down to have an audition of equipment. They are particularly impressed with the La Scalas. They *claim* that their 2 watt amp played "Also Sprach Zarathustra" (AKA Theme to 2001: A Space Odyssey) to thrilling levels. Only someone delusional would make his first choice for playing an extremely dynamic symphonic work a 2-watter. Gimme a break. I don't doubt that these hi-fi dudes were so thrilled to hear a truly high-efficiency speaker that they lost their objectivity for a while and figured they could do anything now with low watt amps. They let their enthusiasm cloud their judgment about what they were hearing, that's all. Jazman, if you would be so good, please explain to me how a 2-watt amp could give the listener drawn in that ad the benefit of 115db peaks. ---------------- Mr. Parrot, Poor fellow. You're still stuck on the ad. Ads are not FACT. HELLO? Did you bother to check the level of the listeners in the piece I suggested? Of course not, it was running counter to your paradigm. I also suggest you re-read the few last paragraphs of the ad you're so proud of. "The 'Old' system consisted of one 10 watt amplifier driving a Klipschorn Loudspeaker. As long as the demonstration material stayed in the non dynamic realm of strings and woodwinds there was no great lesson to be learned. After three bars of piano or other material of dynamic content, it was overwhelmingly evident that the ten watts into a horn would put far more music in a room than our 300 watts into the acoustic suspension system." I also suggest you actually read the entire article I suggested, then try to understand what you have read. It's not about "thrilling levels". If that's your definition of excellent audio("thrilling levels"), I see where and why we take completely different routes. BTW, the dynamics of a large orchestra are NOT the result of the db level. I actually played in a concert orchestra in school, so if you want to go that route, I have some experience to draw upon and more than willing to discuss it. Lastly, having probably never heard a quality 2 watt amp, I suggest you try to FREE YOUR MIND. Poor Parrot, you seem to be like so many who are afraid of what they do not know or have not experienced. It really is painless to expand your mind. Try it, you might like it. Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 ---------------- On 11/25/2003 1:21:40 PM paulparrot wrote: ---------------- On 11/25/2003 1:17:20 PM DeanG wrote: But that's if you want peaks of 115db. That's freaking loud! What if you just want peaks of 100db? ---------------- 100db peaks = YAWNS. Does anyone here know how fast the Radio Shack sound pressure meter responds? For instance, if there is a very quick transient, will it catch it in its full glory? I don't think it will. ---------------- Paul, it depends on which model (version) it is. The older ones have a VU type meter. All meters of this type will have major peak errors due to the ballistics of the meter 'needle'. Some meters have a TRUE peak-hold reading capability. I suspect the newer Radio Shack LED based meter readouts are more accurate. I still have the older one. Not something I would use for testing the room acoustics, or even true peak levels which may be 12dB higher than the meter is showing. Also, I have original copy of that ad. Didn't I include that in the "Klipsch Audio Papers" package? Just think how many more Blose speakers it would take to perform the job! And to think Blose tries to market the 901 for sound reinforcement applications! LMFAO!! There's nothing wrong with a 30' tower of speakers (to truely be able to reproduce a 30' wavelength). The Grateful Dead had a sound system like that. But the towers were loaded with high efficiency JBL D130 & D140 drivers in large bass reflex systems (and horn loaded bass bins) with horn loaded mid/high. Garcia used a Mac amp driving 3 10" JBL D110. They never sounded as good when they went to the Meyer Sound systems. So There's something to be said for that 30' tower. Hmmmmmmm.........thats about 7 Khorns on each side. Maybe 8 if you use one mid/high unit & the rest Khorn bottoms. Looks like the next music room will have a 30' ceiling! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted November 25, 2003 Author Share Posted November 25, 2003 Sheltie, That is an interesting idea about reducing background noise. But I think that is pretty difficult in modern times. I don't follow your thought about these levels being possible with (presumably low-powered) SET. The ad did not say levels like they mention are achievable with 2 watts. And I certainly didn't take anything out of context. The entire ad copy is right there for all to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted November 25, 2003 Author Share Posted November 25, 2003 Mr. Jazman, You are saying that ads are not facts but a hi-fi dude get-together *is* ? You have it completely backwards, hence the problem. The ad gives numbers, or facts if you will. If you find any problem with the math, please let us know. I don't care how many audiophiles there are who claim they heard something. You can find audiophiles who will tell you that little strips of rainbow-colored aluminum foil placed judiciously around a room will improve the sound. The last few paragraphs of the ad are discussing an entirely different situation than in the rest of the ad. Even so, it is still talking about ten (10) watts, not two (2). HUGE difference in SPL capability. I am quite familiar with orchestras, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 ---------------- On 11/25/2003 6:15:00 PM sheltie dave wrote: The khorn, and Klipsch's other horn speakers, were designed to first provide maximum efficiency and secondly minimize distortion. ---------------- Dave, that's wrong. PWK consistantly stated that his primary and first objective was 'low distortion'. And to clarify that even further, it was "adequate power output with low distortion" ( Eight Cardinal Points in Loudspeakers for Sound Reproduction, PWK, IRE Transaction On Audio Nov-Dec 1961) Notice that the second word in this technical paper is "DISTORTION" (the first word is "THE"). There's also another paper (the Dope From Hope Newsletters I believe) where PWK states his priorities, in order of preference. First on the list is low distortion with adequate power output (what good is low distortion if you don't have adequate power output?). Last (#5 I think) was smoothness of frequency response. I think he viewed maximum efficiency as something to minimize certain forms of distortion. Low distortion was the priority. Efficiency was required in order to achieve it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Futterman OTL. Those are some amps I'd love to get my hands on & hear in my system. They're about the only thing I think I'd consider replacing my MB3045 with. He had a great mod for the MB3045 using 6LF6. Unfortunately, those tubes are out of production just like the 8045G & 6240G that the MB3045 uses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted November 25, 2003 Author Share Posted November 25, 2003 Artto, I have the analog version of the Radio Shack meter. I have hit 110dB on it only once (at about 15 feet away). Good to know it was probably a lot louder than indicated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.