classic Klipsch ad, 4 pages

[Parrot]

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On 11/26/2003 6:13:08 PM jazman wrote:

Happy Thanksgiving Mr. Parrot.

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Thanks, Mr. Jazman.

The crux of the 2 watts statement is what constitutes a normal listening level. There's times I'm using only hundredths of a watt. But to go back to the situation with which this thread started, yawns or goosebumps, and the ability to render the full dynamic range of an excellent recording of a symphony orchestra, 2 watts is not sufficient. (Now it's your turn to tell me, No, that's not true, because some "experienced listeners" in 1974 reported that 2 watts is enough!)

[sunnysal]

can we at least agree that 12 watts per channel (my amp) via klipschorns (my speakers ) will produce the SPLs and dynamics necessary in a single story 20X15 room to simulate "full dynamic range of an excellent recording of a symphony orchestra"?

if we can start there (knowing wattage, speaker efficiency, room size and the desired goal) we can then test the limits by dropping wattage or varying room size or goal.

until we agree on a point of departure we cannot progress.

how about it folks?

if not, what wattage are we sure meet those criteria under those conditions? 20? 5? 100???

tony

[mobile homeless]

Artto, I find the prices usually correspond with the AIR-GAPPED output transformers with the higher priced amps having the much more expensive iron, done to higher tolerances, this not to mention the various other irons used in a modern set design (plate, filiment, interstage, grid choke, choke etc). The use of the word "crude" is not exactly the best connotations for SET amps either. And although these circuits are BASED on simple designs from the heyday of tubes and before, there have been a lot of refinements. More new experiments, combinations, and refinements are being done in the DIY undeground trenches with single-ended topology than anywhere in tubes right now, although there is some wacky stuff going on with pp as well, this from some of the SET brigade.

I also find it interesting that simplicity and elegance in design is equated with "crude". Further irony lies in the fact that the quality DHT SET amp is perhaps the absolute LEAST CRUDE SOUNDING amplifier topology I know of, bar none. While high volume V-8 power is not its forte, within its limits is where it shines with few peers.

Sadly, I now think the Klipsch 2 Channel Forum is home to more misinformation on SET amplifiers than anywhere else besides regular audio forums. I find this ironic, considering how well the Heritage speakers do with quality SET amps, despite the anti-SET brigade, who really dont appreciate what differences a quality SET amp provide.

As for the "clean power" of larger amps, most higher wattage amps have MORE distortion at lower levels, this a place where the 104dB speaker is living most of the time.

I still am amazed at the negativity towards something that few have experienced. Even more irony lies in the fact that it's this SAME type of mindset that Paul Klipsch fought all his life when comparing the horn to regular dynamic speakers. And with all the ultra high power amps coming into vogue in the 80s, the poor Khorn could do nothing but suffer as these bombastic monoliths were partnered with nary a clue. Much of the angst and dislike of Klipsch Horns were the result of the horror of high wattage amps partnered.

Like the fallout from a nuclear bomb blast, it is hard to overcome certain mindsets that seem to pervade the common thread of thought. It's becoming quite clear that like horn conversation in a hi-end audio salon, one has to avoid the acerbic confrontations of low power in the very forum with speakers DESIGNED for low power amps. Not to say higher power amps dont do well. I have appreciated a number of types of amps on my Cornwalls, some FAR above 10w.

What a waste. I dont discount any topology and look for all ways to provide music. SET and low power is just one more variation on the solution, and an amazing one at that.

kh

[Erik Mandaville]

PWK liked PP 2A3 amps (Brook). SET amps sound really nice with these high efficiency horns -- some like higher power PP amps equally well. And that's good. I think we are lucky to have the possibility of both.

[coda]

Anyway, I will have you know that I have modelled my entire life after Paul W. Klipsch and that before I do anything, I think to myself, "What would PWK have done in this situation?"

WPA3.5's and WLA12A- letter to Listener Magazine

Dear Mr. Dudley, I am the co-author of a new book being released worldwide in March 2002 titled Paul Wilbur Klipsch: The Life... The Legend. It is a wonderful biography of unargueably the most famous man in audio. It chronicles his 98 years and counting on this earth beautifully. The reason why I am writing is because of a review that your magazine had written back in Autumn 1999 (Vol5, # 4) pp. 73-82. I was given this issue by a friend because he knew I owned Klipsch and I loved tubes and he wanted me to read a little about this Single Ended Triode thing. I must say I was curious. After pouring over 98 years of Paul's past it was in numerous areas that Paul mentioned how he loved SET's and the 2A3 tube. Well, how was I to throw a deaf ear Paul's direction, about this subject,if I were already admiring not only his life and the way he is living it, as well as owning his wonderful LaScala's. I have heard many a speaker in NYC and I can tell the world Klipsch is the cleanest, purest, sound and let us not forget accurate, that I have ever heard, period. Off I went to entertain myself reading this article you wrote, tongue in cheek. To make a long story short, I ordered a pair of Wright WPA-3.5's and oh well...I guess all I have to say is just read what Peter wrote about them and that is all I have to say about them myself except that please do go out and buy the WLA-12 Pre-Amp George makes because those two together make the sweetest sound this side of heaven with an efficient loudspeaker. George, God bless you, your equipment has again proved to me that there is a God and he does work in mysterious ways, because together you and Paul have brought me an extreme happiness. And thank you LISTENER for exposing me to this unbelievable work of art. Respectfully, Maureen "The Wright Woman" Barrett

Just maybe try 2A3 SET once with your K-horns Paul P.? And then enlighten us.

[greg928gts]

When I was in my teens, I used to bring this 4 page ad down to my local hi-fi store where they sold Bose and get them all worked up.

I used to challenge them all the time, I'd offer to bring a 30 watt amplifier and one of my La Scalas and put it up against anything and everything they wanted to put together in the store. They never took me up on the deal even though I showed up several times with one of the La Scalas in the back of my mom's truck.

I still have that 4 page foldout, stained and worn.

I think I still have the T-shirt I used to wear in that store too. The one that said "I Own Klipsch" on the front, and "Beware Of Bose, Distortion Kills" on the back. They loved that one. I got kicked out many times.

They couldn't push the issue too much though, because the owner was friends with my stepfather who owned a coin store right next door to their audio store. My stepfather and the owner had an agreement going. When the music was playing loud, my stepfather would call over and tell him that things were falling off the wall next door and could he please turn the music down. Of course, this would impress the people listening to the Bose speakers so much, that they would shell out $1400 bucks for a pair of those magic boxes with the $82 worth of parts.

Later my stepfather was thrown in jail for fraud. OH! Not for the audio scam, but for jerking little old ladies out of their money for incorrectly graded coins.

I don't know which was worse.

Greg

[MikeJohns]

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On 11/26/2003 2:53:06 PM paulparrot wrote:

Mike,

What do you do with your two sets of speakers? Is one pair just not being used?

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Actually, I am embarassed to say I have them connected to a Pioneer Receiver, I was hoping it would go without notice.

Mike Johns Boston, MA

[Parrot]

Funny story, Greg.

The main misinformation I see on this board, practically every day, is that low-powered SET can handle anything thrown at it. Reasonable low-power advocates do not make these claims. Unreasonable low-power advocates do (for example, the "experienced listeners" that Mr. Jazman is so fond of, who raved about "Also Sprach Zarathustra" being played with 2 watts).

One would think that low-watt fans would be satisfied with saying that within certain parameters, they find their amps the best choice. And some do leave it at that. But I also see a few people, not too many, insisting that 2 watts can do anything that, say, 30 watts can do. Apparently this is due to 1) magic, 2) quality, and 3) the suspension of physics.

Paul W. Klipsch did not turn to a low-watt amp when he wanted to reproduce the dynamics of a symphony. He did talk about using just one watt of power for *background music*. These are two entirely different things.

[Parrot]

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On 11/26/2003 9:13:28 PM MikeJohns wrote:

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On 11/26/2003 2:53:06 PM paulparrot wrote:

Mike,

What do you do with your two sets of speakers? Is one pair just not being used?

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Actually, I am embarassed to say I have them connected to a Pioneer Receiver, I was hoping it would go without notice.

Mike Johns Boston, MA

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The reason I asked is because I've been looking for a pair of Belles and thought you might just have them in storage, not being used. You're a little too far away from me to drive to and pick them up, though, even if you did want to sell them.

[MikeJohns]

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On 11/26/2003 3:51:15 PM mobile homeless wrote:

Hmmm... You know of only ONE that could design and build a low watt amplifier of this high a caliber?

Who is this Mystery Lad? I am hoping his name is not as secret as the StuderFunken.

On the preamp subject, there are MANY preamp rec threads in here. In fact, there are some good options on Audiogon right now that would be an improvement over the Crown. What is the price range?

kh

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To what you refer, I am unsure. I bought the amplifier at auction as it was working and was well within budget. As for a preamplifier, my budget for that would be $500.00 to $750.00. I did feel I was getting quite a deal on the amplifier. Others at the auction did laugh at the brand name, it is somewhat different.

Mike Johns Boston, MA

[3dzapper]

"The KLIPSCHORN is very efficient. Only about two watts are required to drive it to normal listening level. However, many people feel that the CLEAN watts required for such an unfailingly honest speaker can only be found in larger amplifiers."

Paul and Jazman, I copied that statement to show that there is no true answer. Amps are a matter of taste some like Chocholate and some like Rocky Road, but if it's well made it's all good. Well with the exception of jalipino which makes me shudder.

Rick

[sunnysal]

1. ANYONE who prefers Chocolate to Rocky Road is an IDIOT.

2. EVERYONE knows that Rocky Road is the only flavor that truely maximizes the "ice cream" experience. Hence, you cannot EVER hope to achieve true ice cream nirvana with Chocolate.

3. You might think you have but you HAVE NOT.

4. Now go back to your hopelessly useless Chocolate ice cream understanding that Rocky Road eaters are the ONLY ice cream eaters who are REALLY enjoying (correctly enjoying, not the fake enjoyment you Chocolate lovers go on and on about) our ice cream.

5. Don´t EVEN mention Vanilla.

F*ck Chocolate! Long live Rocky Road!

[3dzapper]

[Deang]

The 2A3 Brooks was a push-pull -- and certainly had more than 3 watts.

[mobile homeless]

Dean, next time you are down my way, I invite you to stop in to hear what 3.5w can do. With luck, maybe we can get drunk on the Atlantic if my boat is in the water. I didnt say we'd be in the same boat but isnt the Atlantic good enough?

Bring the Mudvayne...

kh

[bkrop]

The Atlantic may not be big enough,how about the Pacific?

[steve]

Hey, you SET non believers leave my amp alone!

I'm slow cooking my turkey over the tubes now!

Hope you all have a great Thanxgiving!!

Steve

[NOSValves]

The thought of Mudvayne coupled with a 2A3 set amp give me Goose Bumps in all the wrong places !

[Erik Mandaville]

Dean has this correct. I was just looking for the VTV interview I have done with PWK, and it is in that discussion that he brought up the Brook PP 2A3 amplifiers. I wish I could find that thing, since there is quite a bit of information that could be applied to this thread -- which actually has been really interesting to follow.

Time to double checki wiring, and then mount the DRD chassis on the wooden bottom. My feeling is that this is going to be a very good sounding SET. The wiring seems to have be very carefully thought out, and reflects experience derived from the Moondogs -- the DRDs are more stream-lined to me in terms of wire dress and point-to-point connections.

[mobile homeless]

There is no arguing the Brook 2A3 IS NOT a push pull amp. But at 12wpc, they are not power houses. Many have said the Brook 12a PP Monoblocks are some of the best sounding and there apparently was a 12a model with a factory mod made just for the Klipschorn. The 12a came in around 12wpc. A pair of decent Brook 12a monos with original RCA 2A3 Black Plates just sold on Ebay recently for a whopping $3550 totally stock and untouched.

The 2A3 is a great tube whether in PP or single-ended mode. The only one in this forum that has experimented heavily with 2A3 in BOTH topologies is Jeff Lessard, Mr. Painful Reality.

Mr. Parrot can protest all he wants. He doesnt own a pair of 2A3 Monoblocks and I am for sure, based on his comments over the last few months, he NEVER WILL. That's his choice and he makes it loud and clear in almost EVERY post he enters.

Interestingly, besides those that have sampled the Bottlehead Paramour, a ultra low cost 2A3 amp with quite pedestrian output iron (the only Bottlehead amp without MagneQuest), EVERY single 2A3 SET owner in here I have talked with has STAYED with this topology, 100% claiming that it's the best amplifier they have had in their system. And if they DO make a move, most go to even LESS power in the 45 tube!

One is left to draw their own conclusions. For me, I like both SET and PP and ultimately want to get the highest form of both, ultilizing directly heated triodes in single-ended and push-pull. I plan to keep a good EL-34 and EL-84 amp around as well.

USED WITHIN ITS LIMITS, the SET is the most natural sounding topology I have heard. IT WILL CLIP if pushed way out of its domain. But the clipping is so benign, it's livable. And I have found it takes quite a bit to makes these amps sound poor. I can sure live with the sacrifice. Personally, I have preferred the lower power SET amps to the higher power models. But if they made a 30w SET amp that sounded as open and natural as a single-digit model, I would be in line. That is for sure. SET AMPS HAVE LIMITATIONS. But I find they really dont bother me.

The beauty is that with Klipsch Horns, they ALL HAVE MERIT.

kh