Do horns produce an inherent distortion?

[AndyKubicki]

In discussing horns vs other speaker designs, someone told me horns distort. Are we all deaf here? Or do we just not mind this type of ditortion, like the preferrence people have to tube distortion vs SS distortion. Seems to me that less cone travel = less chance for distortion to occur. Is this correct?

[artto]

Andy dude my friend. EVERYTHING HAS IT'S OWN INHERENT distortion! Of course horns distort. What they didn't tell you was that horns, distort, LESS!

[bkrop]

Your friend maybe referring to reflections induced by the horn body, but is ill informed and just trying to push your buttons!

[D-MAN]

Hi Andy,

I have heard that too, but I think that the context in which I heard it is important. I've thrown in some other issues that might relate to horn distortion...

1) Horns distort LESS (intermodulation and harmonic distortion) than any other type of speaker for the same rated output. Typically, the higher the efficiency, the less distortion of both types is generated. And horns are the most efficient type of speaker that there is.

2) Piezo-electric type tweeters are to be avoided even though they are usually horn mounted. These could give quality horns a bad name. They are not usually of the quality needed for most audio hi-fi reproduction but they are cheap and are therefore used in some applications.

3) I've read that FOLDED HORNS (typically bass bins) do tend to muffle (or distort) the upper frequency (bass octaves) range approaching the upper crossover cutoff due to the bending (or folds) of the sound channel. That is why the Klipschorn and its relatives have a fairly low crossover point (approx 375Hz or so) when compared to Altec A-7's and the non-folded horn crowd. I suppose that this could be the "distortion" that you might hear about, but I would add that when properly balanced with an appropriate corssover network or the like, there is no apparent distortion.

4) I read that CORNER HORNS in particular produce some overtones or something that is inherent in corner placement (so it would effect all corner-placed speakers). I have not experienced this per-se, but the word applied to this was German, but I forget what it was exactly; something like "eigertones". I'm sure that somebody will clue me in on that. Even so, I will take the efficiency of a corner horn over every other speaker design.

DM

[arj]

Horns do distort but only if they are badly designed. Also, I guess this is because the Horn uses Acoustic amplification rather than electrical, hence the smallest distortion does get amplified much more without any Feedback or gain control, whether they be due to the source or due to the transducer..er the speaker coil/diagphram.

Klipsch horn design is a patented design and obviously well designed hence does not fit into this generalisation , similiar is the case with lothX, Beuhorhs, Avant garde etc etc..all of which are in the "Well designed horns" category.

I guess this is one generalisation which has actually caused lot of Audio folks to stay away from Horn based speakers..But with the popularity of tubes this does appear to be changing !!!!

[3dzapper]

Andy, Andy ,Andy,

The distortion those heretics hear is the distortion in their poorly chosen auxillary equipment. Klipsch horn models are unforgiving of a bad input, like a stone in your shoe it bothers you. I dare anyone to come to my home and say that my Khorns distort anything besides their mind when they hear them at a clean 90+dbs average volume level. I'll play stuff like Tubular Bells, Abbey Road and A Question Of Balance. Then invite their dentist over to work on their dropped jaws. Right now I'm listening to a Salvation Army bought album,Living Guitars. I could be in any ball room in the world listening to this ensemble and never hear it clearer and truer.

Tell those doubters to take another hit off their pipe and chill out until they can truly experience horns.

Rick

[TBrennan]

Horns do have a unique type of distortion caused by air overload in the throat. This distortion is usually lower in level than the distortions caused by direct-radiators but if one is attuned or sensitive to this distortion then you might find horns unpleasant.

In any case this form of distortion is very real.

[AndyKubicki]

Thanks All!

The one thing I did was to allow for different types of distortion and attributed his preferrence to being more or less tolerant of a certain type of distortion. I did indeed invite him to my house for a listening session so he can point out the distortion I am not hearning . This person is in the recording industry, so this should be interesting should he be able to take me up on my offer. I will post more as our conversation develops, but for now, happy Thanksgiving Day to all who celebrate!

[3dzapper]

Andy,

You have the perfect system to show him what great horns sound like. Invite him to bring some of his own source material to listen too. Put pillows down and remove sharp corners to protect yourself from lawsuits when he drops to the floor.

Rick

[Deang]

There are quite a few different distortion types particular to horns.

Distortion at the front of the lens from not interacting with the differential of the loading source

Distortion from imperfect loading between the throat and horn

Distortion from wave diffraction, or internal reflections in the lens

Distortion from pressure being directed back at the diaphragm

Distortion from the compression of air in the throat (non-linear compression)

Now I know why I like and listen to RF-7s.

[3dzapper]

Ah but Dean, Direct radiators have there own particular types of distortion.

RF series speakers especially the sevens are very flat across the spectrum and exibit very low distortion for that venue. But, most generally known direct radiators are distortion machines or their frequency response is severly curtailed. Much worse than the horns by Klipsch. Remember your 7s do have a horn loaded top end engineered by Klipsch.

Rick

[Deang]

There's is another way to high efficiency and low distortion. Check out the Raven R3 ribbon driver -- and though VMPS doesn't match the sensitivity of a horn -- it does damn good. The new FS tweeter is fairly efficient when compared to domes, and the midrange ribbon goes from 166Hz to 10Khz, with VERY low distortion -- and all of this coupled to a slot loaded 12" woofer. For home use -- it is an option.

The Infinity C.M.M.D. technology is impressive (and the Reference drivers make use of it) -- pushing resonance nodes higher, minimizing breakup -- and presenting a very clean presentation at all but the highest power levels.

The point here is that new and better methods of modeling, along with better technology -- are enabling direct radiators and ribbons to approach near horn performance -- without many of the drawbacks.

Yes, the RF-7's have a "horn", but they wouldn't have the sensitivity they have if those two 10s couldn't keep up. I think that says a lot about those ceramic cones.

[3dzapper]

Yes I'm sure. Very stiff and light weight. Maybe you could convince John Warren to plot the RF-7 drivers some day. It would be very interesting. I wonder how a 15" version would sound in a Khorn bass bin?

Rick

[Randy Bey]

"Horns do have a unique type of distortion caused by air overload in the throat. This distortion is usually lower in level than the distortions caused by direct-radiators but if one is attuned or sensitive to this distortion then you might find horns unpleasant. "

Tom,

what I understand is that this effect is most pronounced at higher volumes that might not represent typical listening volumes. Except BigBusa, I guess.

[Colin]

what kind of horns distort? Tuba, clarinet, saxophone? How much distortion is normal for a musical intruement compared to a big ole horn? Is this even or odd order distortion? Does this make horn loudspeakers sound more realistic?