Klipschfoot Posted November 30, 2003 Share Posted November 30, 2003 ---------------- Boy Neo, Khorns and the shed bring up some vivid thoughts ---------------- "Room loading" issues of another sort arise there. I thought "room-loading" was dangerous only if there were not enough exits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted November 30, 2003 Share Posted November 30, 2003 Klipschfoot "Room loading" issues of another sort arise there. I thought "room-loading" was dangerous only if there were not enough exits. That was great ! Paul, I would never want to carry more than one at a time. Is that why you gave me that "your nuts look" when I picked up the box with both amps, preamps and various junk in there Did you forget about the monster boxes you have shipped to me ? Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnalOg Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 ---------------- On 11/30/2003 9:39:37 PM NOSValves wrote: Paul, Just keep in mind the huge difference between the Chinese Golden Aero and the Tungsols this weekend before you spend to much Craig ---------------- Nice place Paul, sounds like a blast, wish I was in on the fun! Where do you find those Chinese Aero tubes? Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 KT-66, EL-37, 350B are all "6L6" beam power tubes and were all designed in response to the success of the original 6L6. The 6L6GB and 6L6GC were RCA's answer to the great British variants--at least that is how the story goes. The 350B was inspired by the 6L6 and was developed by WE for high-power push-pull amps in the early 1940's--it remained in production (in small numbers) until the 1980's but was always scarce and expensive and never used at all in non-commercial applications, but it IS the best sounding 6L6 ever-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 Wow - green with envy!!! Great pics - looks like you all had a time and a half!! At least this explains Paul's retiscence with traditional SET amps. Frankly I am amazed 30 watts fill the room - that looks like a 100 watt room (with KHorns - 1000 Watts with B&W et al) if ever I saw one. Would Love to have my amps tested in a setup like that - alongside all the others you guys had to play with. One of the most frustrating things on this forum is that we dont get to hear what others do - so it is very difficult to establish a frame of reference. As I said - seriously envious over here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 Man oh man, I wish I was there!!! But in early 2004 I hope to have craig and other klipsch guys over with their own stuff for testing and fun Smilin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 Max, At least this explains Paul's retiscence with traditional SET amps. Frankly I am amazed 30 watts fill the room - that looks like a 100 watt room (with KHorns - 1000 Watts with B&W et al) if ever I saw one. Very Valid point !! I thought that my amps may have done even better if I had put them in UT output in that room for 60 watts. I personally do not see how in any room I could live with 3 watts SET but maybe 10 or 15 would suit me. Keep in mind I'm talking me guys not you !! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 I haven't been basing all my low-watts-is-not-for-me posts on this room. Even in my previous location, with a room about the same length and width, but with only a 7.5 feet ceiling, I'd hit greater than 10 watt peaks during really loud passages. And before that, in a living room on a small side but with two open and wide doorways, 2 clean acoustic watts were needed fairly frequently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 Well Paul, On the one hand who am I to disagree with you. It appears we both listen to classical music (some rather large scale) and we both use PP amps (mine 70 wpc ultralinear (EL34) with the option to go to 100 wpc (KT88). On the other hand most of my listening is enforced to low levels by environmental rather than amplification limits so I imagine that the right 8 watter would do for me. What I do want out of my amp, however, is bass at low listening levels. Not chest thumping - in yer face bass, but the acompaniment of the lower notes (or at least some of them). The only 300B I have ever tried didnt manage this. I suspect that is a result of the "built to a budget" PSU. This amp does it in spades - even with the EL34 that is not noted for its strength in this area. On the odd occasion when I do get to turn the loud dial things do come more to life but fortunately the lack at low levels is not obvious without comparison. In other words whatever it is that is missing at these conversational levels appears to be simply as a result of the reduced volume and not as a result of deficiencies in the amp itself. I'd guess that most of the time my music hovers around 75dB. It would have to be quite a peak even to upset a 2A3 at these levels. For reference my room is about 20ft square with 8 foot ceilings - not small. The only things that are stopping me from going this route are: 1. Any SET amp would probably have to be a good one and therefore priced commensurately. 2. Those pesky odd ocasions when I do want to go loud would almost certainly (almost) mean I would need a PP amp as well (ala Kelly). 3. The thought of having to switch amps to accomodate my mood and music is just too much of a PITA to consider. 4. Another set of amps = another step closer to a divorce. Unless I put the SET's in the much smaller bedroom mated to my Sansui 2500's...hmmm...there is a thought....need another TT for the bedroom...already got a spare Clearaudio Virtuoso Cart and the Project phono box....oh ****....not a bad idea. I am in trouble again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 Thanks, Mark. I vetoed several houses when we were looking because they weren't suitable for a multichannel setup with Khorns. For the many people who have been unable to find a good place for Khorns, consider the extra difficulty of three more Klipsch in the same room. The realtor was obviously getting a little frustrated. One day she mentioned to me about how much her nephew enjoyed his surround sound with his little cube speakers, and didn't I think I would be happy with something like that? So one day I took her husband into the basement at the previous house, while she was upstairs, and played him the beginning of Biber's Salzburg Mass on the Klipschorns. He went upstairs looking like he'd been wringed and I told his wife that her husband wanted Klipschorns too. Max, I'd be okay in principle with having different systems for different types of music. There is the expense and hassle though. But the main reason I wouldn't is because I am not convinced that a low-watt amp can actually deliver more of the essence of a quiet piece than can a 30-watt amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 ---------------- On 11/30/2003 6:52:30 PM NOSValves wrote: ...The Cary preamp while being absolutely beautiful and sounding great could not better my modified Mapletree Ultra 4A in fact we all agreed Mapletree was the best of the weekend by a small margin that we couldn't quite nail down exactly what it was ... tighter dynamics maybe ? The Lam 6SN7 sounded very much like the Cary with the Cary being slightly bloated on the bottom. keep in mind everyone were splitting hairs here. ... ---------------- Craig, You've got me intrigued with the Mapletree Ultra 4A preamp. I had pretty much decided on getting a Cary SLP-98P until reading your post. Is it your mods that make the difference? Are they "top secret" and only available through NOS Valves? The price difference between a Cary SLP-98P and Mapletree Ultra 4A is quite substantial and, as Dean pointed out, that money could be put to use elsewhere in a system. Thanks, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 "But the main reason I wouldn't is because I am not convinced that a low-watt amp can actually deliver more of the essence of a quiet piece than can a 30-watt amp." Hell dont think I know either!! Its just that so many people on this forum rave about the things I am intrigued. Ultimately there is only one way to find out!!! Whilst my signature is somewhat tongue in cheek it does pertain when it comes to audio. I have done so many about faces that I am dizzy. Just because I can see no logical reason why a low power SET amp should, necessarily, provide audio nirvana at low volumes (against a decent PP) I am not ruling it out. I've made myself look like a monkey once too often to proclaim one way or another. If the chance arises I am gonna get a SET and have me a play. Of course it wont answer any questions in everyone elses debate one way or another but it will satisfy my curiosity, a little... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 Chris, The Mapletree that Craig has is really nice. It's a two-piece affair, both pieces downright tiny. I believe the technical term is "mini preamp." One unit is the tubed power supply. He put in a lot of extra caps, among other things, and went from thinking it sounded pretty bad to outright excellent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 I thought the Cary sounded a touch smoother on top -- the treble having an "airbrushed" quality to it. The bass however was a bit bloated compared to the Mapletree, which was much tighter. If I were to keep the Cary, I would probably change out the coupling caps. It is a beautiful unit, and well put together, and has the nifty remote. However, we are talking over $2000 used, when a modded Mapletree can be had for much much less. I'm actually more interested in what Mr. Wizard is cooking up, and I'm anticipating some nice sound out of Mark Deneen's prototype. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnalOg Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 ---------------- On 12/1/2003 11:45:51 AM DeanG wrote: I thought the Cary sounded a touch smoother on top -- the treble having an "airbrushed" quality to it. The bass however was a bit bloated compared to the Mapletree, which was much tighter. If I were to keep the Cary, I would probably change out the coupling caps. It is a beautiful unit, and well put together, and has the nifty remote. However, we are talking over $2000 used, when a modded Mapletree can be had for much much less. I'm actually more interested in what Mr. Wizard is cooking up, and I'm anticipating some nice sound out of Mark Deneen's prototype. ---------------- Is it possible the difference in sound between the two could be related to a tube issue? tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 Sure, it's probably a combination of many things. Tubes, circuit, PS differences, differences in the amout of filtering, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tillmbil Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 Wow, what a beautiful listening environment. I only wish I could devote that much space to my music. On the other hand, what a cold look...I mean of the outside through the windows. Makes me shiver. Is the Garden shed heated? I wouldn't want Neo to freeze. How much heat does a set amp put out? Maybe enough heat to keep the Garden house warm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 I think the difference between the 2 is $3000 dollars and some cosmetics issues anyway you slice it ! No the mods are 90% there in his current SE version . The rest is simple and fairly cheap. He may offer them this way himself in time. After all the SE version is really just from my suggestions to Loyd after I reworked it. I also suggested the tube power supply which he provided at cost to me for my efforts with the preamp and what not. He is a great guy to deal with for sure. Here are the differences between my preamp and what he offers now with the current SE version and Tube Power supply. I used Auricaps throughout to replace his Solens except I used Russian Military Film and Foils for the main output caps. He now uses Auricaps throughout. I added 40 Uf more filtering to the first and second main B+ position and 200Uf more to the heaters then his current version. In the preamp I added another 2 40uF filters to the B+ again. So the difference is 6 Electrolytics and 2 different brand coupling caps. Craig I personally would tell everyone to hold there horses until Mark finishes his current preamp project ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 thanks for the report, beautiful room, I especially like the differences between the thrtee amps in an extra large room, let's see three amps, three guys = nine different opinions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 What a great place, Paul -- I bet you all had a great time! Since little preamps were brought up, I thought I would enclose a picture of this little linestage I built. It was designed by Eric Barbour (featured in Glass Audio a few years ago), and uses active plate loads, one for each side of this single sub-mini 6021. It's a really cheap tube that sounds enormous -- actually has much more gain than my system needs. This is a closeup of the tube with a christmas tree light to show scale. I forgot to reduce the size of the image, here....sorry for another huge attachment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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