The Butcher is Captured

[Istari]

Long Live King George!!!!!!

[TheEAR]

Ranger,

Are you insane,you want to force McDonald's on poor Iraq!They will grow fat,obese and will sue the USA!

[hwatkins]

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On 12/15/2003 2:05:26 AM m00n wrote:

I should have been an attorney because I love this stuff. Hmm, well, love to argue anyway. Not sure if I would like doing all the ground work.

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Interesting m00n - when in college and looking for careers in which I could become very wealthy it soon became clear that I had a strong set of skills that would make me successful as either an attorney or an evangilist (both can be rather rewarding financially). However, as I went deeper in my research I discovered I couldn't live with the ethics of either job...

[ZAKO]

Hey where,s KAIN69? We havent heard him snival around here yet.

[Bill H.]

Watching all this news coverage, again reminds me how our govenment tells us Only what they think we need to hear.

First Iran and now Iraq- we setup and supported both of the leaders thirty some years ago..............now we topple them..............

At the first part of the Invasion, the soliders found (what was reported), about 24 Million dollars in Saddams castle..........some soliders tried to steal some and got caught. Then POOF= not one word or meinton of the money.....why wasn't this money used to finance this debactle....................

BOMAC: Yes I am also glad we caught up with Saddam.......just troubled in trying to justify the loss of Great American Service members..............

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to

say it.

- widely attributed to Voltaire, but appeared in The Friends of

Voltaire (1906),

[boomac]

Saddam raped, tortured, and murdered his own citizens. The purpose of this thread is to celebrate his capture and the end of his tyrannical government. If you want to preach from a soap box, I respectfully suggest you start your own thread. Is this a great country or what.

[Colin]

I was thrilled when I heard it and immediately turned on CNN, but I learned a lot more details in Palm Beach Post this morning.

My first thought was that with the economy picking up, Iraq forming a tribunal and now Saddam captured, that Bush will indeed win re-election. Now if he can just nail the real culprit, Osma bin Laden.

Our threats to Syria must have worked. I see that he did not leave the country. The number one rule for criminals is dont get caught. The number two rule is leave the jurisdiction of the crime. He did neither.

His trial will certainly strengthen the Iraqi people. It will expose the injustices and drive the quest for democracy. It will give them a cause celebre. The most important role for the US is to ensure a free and independent media, not just in Iraq, but one that serves the entire Middle East. This will lead to free debate, which leads to democracy. There is no democracy without dissent.

Saddams remaining claim to fame rests now with his cooperation. Eventually, they might even let him write a book! This would be a best-seller and he might tell all that we want to know. (Nixons book helped us figure-out some of his lies.)

Either way, his capture helps Iraq assimilate some of the great American progressive social experiment. Some day they may embrace a free press, property rights, suffrage, child labor laws, universal education, separation of church and state, independent braches of government, civilian oversight of the military, representative democracy, free trade zones and regulated capitalism.

Some of these modern ideas are beginning to hold in Afghanistan. Some are not. Opium poppies are the largest crop again.

If we can get him, we can get Osma bin Laden. Bush needs to increase cooperation between international police organizations (who? Bush?).

Bush believes what Wolfowitz and the hard-liners believed ten years ago. They advised his father then, they advise him now. Their information is wrong. Saddam got rid of his WMD years ago. He bluffed, we called his bluff. He doesnt have any WMD.

The Baghdad Micki-Ds is one of the busiest in the world. Soldiers line up to pay for their food when they could have cafeteria food for free.

First Iran, then Iraq was part of the Nixon-Kissinger concept of a strong man in the Middle East to stabilize the region. Yet the build-up of a empire does not stabilize its neighbors; it threatens them.

It may not be our job to remove brutal dictators, even when they have 10% of the Middle Eastern oil, but I am proud of the role we played and the message it sends. Just not the cost of young or innocent lives. Often what is good for the empire is bad for the people.

[Istari]

Good post Colin...

[dgb]

"holy ****" I believe were my words. Very surprised he was caught alive, taking an enemy head of state in war is almost unheard of. This is great news for our boys. I think this will start the beginning of a downturn in the number attacks for a couple reasons.

1. Some loyalists will simply quit.

2. After the fighting drags on a few more weeks, money, supplies and motivation will dwindle.

3. HOW he was captured was very demoralizing for his supporters and the "jihadists" around the world.

4. Most importantly, it will make it easier for pro-democaracy and pro-US Iraqis to come out of the closet an openly support the rebuilding of Iraq. The shadow of Hussein and a possible return was always in the back of their minds as long as he was free. Hussein ingranded the sense of omnipresent terror in his people as well has his architype, Josef Stalin did.

To the cynicists out there, a few reality checks.

1. Occupation of Germany was 10 years, and there were terrorist attacks against allied forces for years after the war ended. This was in a nation that was throughly decimated by war and had witnessed it's leader commit suicide before the end of the war. We are shooting to be out of Iraq in less than a year and a half, which I think is unrealistic. If you expected us out any quicker you were not living in reality. Bush was up front about this, it's going to take a while.

2. Hussein did support terrorism in several ways. First were two unprovoked wars agains Iran and Kuwait. Second was internal murder and repression of religious, political and national minorities. Paid bounties to the families of Palistinian Suicide Bombers.

3. He was in almost total non-compliance with the UN and with the Gulf War I treaty.

4. Iraq did have massive WMD facilities in the past and, most importantly, ACTED as if it was covering up a massive program. There are still dozens of sites to be inspected, so don't discout a program yet. Personally I think there were better reasons to go to war with Iraq than this, unfortunately this is the one Bush hung his hat on.

5. Things are progressing in Afghanistan, just beacuse you don't hear about it every day, doesn't mean nothing is happening.

Bush could revert back to Clinton's McDiplomacy of half-assedly shooting off cruise missles, or bombing civilians from 30,000 feet (Wes Clark should be real proud of his service in Bosnia) so as to not have to face public criticism, but he's doing it the hard way, and the right way. Feet on the ground, face to face with people that we're trying to help. It's hard, it's costly, but if done properly, it will work.

[m00n]

I know this thread needs to die. I am appologizing in advance for making this last post.

But someone said why is this such a big deal. Here is an article I read on a local news site. I think it does a great job of summing up the question from one angle.

=======================================================

Image of Saddam in custody a sobering sight for some Arab rulers

10:55 AM CST on Monday, December 15, 2003

By G.G. LaBELLE / Associated Press

CAIRO, Egypt The image of Saddam Hussein in custody, his power and bravado gone, is a sobering sight for other Arab rulers whose regimes are based on might, not on the consent of their people, Arab politicians and commentators said Monday.

"Saddam's capture is a lesson to others who should know that democracy is important, that people should have a say in the decision-making, that leaderships must have relations and dialogue with their people," Ayman Majali, a former Jordanian deputy prime minister, told The Associated Press.

"But unfortunately, many leaderships in the Arab world are distanced from their people, and those should know that their fate may be like Saddam's," he said.

In Kuwait, "Lessons to the likes of Saddam," was the headline of a front-page editorial in the daily Al-Siyassah. Written by editor-in-chief Ahmed al-Jarrallah, it said Saturday's seizure of the deposed Iraqi leader provided a shock "to all the evil regimes that until now follow the example of Saddam, use his methods of tyranny and despotism."

Such regimes, al-Jarrallah wrote, "know they are like him ... and that they are the prisoners of the slogans they used to lie to their people. ... Saddam has fallen because of what his wooden mind produced, and similarly, what their minds produce will lead to their fall."

Neither al-Jarrallah nor others who described the dilemma of Arab leaders were specific about which of them had the most to fear. But all saw the arrest as a signal that the Middle East could be at an important turning point.

In Saudi Arabia, political analyst Dawood al-Shirian said the capture of Saddam was a positive development in Arab politics, but he noted it might not be so positive for some Arab rulers.

"For the first time, an Arab dictator is being held accountable for his actions. That will encourage the Arab street to be more forceful in pushing for their rights because they now know that it's not impossible to hold a dictator accountable," al-Shirian said.

Oppressive Arab governments "must feel unhappy ... because they can now see that a society without institutions, human rights and democracy will meet the same fate as Saddam's regime," he added.

An editorial in the English-language Daily Star said Arab governments would be under pressure to change from Washington's destruction of Saddam's regime.

"Like a force of nature, an emboldened America is now bearing down on a Middle East whose habitual status is somnolence," the editorial said. "If the countries of the region continue to let others decide the pace and direction of events, the storm will be a highly destructive one."

"For far too long, governments in the Middle East have moved with all the agility and imagination of a glacier. That will simply not do any longer," the editorial said.

However, it added that if the Arab nations can accept democracy and freedom, "the effect will be like a cleansing rain, washing away the stains left by decades of failed statecraft and illegitimate leadership."

Political analyst Abdul-Ridha Aseeri of Kuwait University said some Arab regimes fear that an American-led force similar to the one that toppled Saddam could oust other leaders as well, even without the approval of the United Nations or other political forums.

Saddam's capture confirmed what had been thought since his regime's fall in April that there is "an international police force that can intervene to save a people from death with justifications, some of which could be correct and some not," Aseeri said.

"Arab regimes in particular are very concerned that the lesson of Iraq and Saddam would be repeated," he said. "They are afraid of military intervention. There used to be national sovereignty, but now there is international sovereignty. There is an international police force that can intervene with legal cover or without it."

=======================================================

[BBB]

I give them 6 months without any military intervention and theyll have a religious fanatic to replace the dictator sitting at the helm urging them to kill the American infidels and purge the land of western societys evils. Watch.

[Fish]

Great post m00n.

[KAiN5 (banned )]

I guess it's perfectly okay for Israel to have WMD and kill Palestinians daily while they fight back with stones and sticks. Seems America is blind when it comes to Israel. You are gonna say "ISRAEL DOESN'T KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE!" Well, duh. The American media doesn't show that part! Why don't you head down here, or even switch on a European new channel to see what's REALLY going on. America wanted to protect Israel and since Iraq *SUPPOSEDLY* had WMD, Iraq was a threat to Israel and so they attacked them "just to make sure." I mean hell, IT'S BEEN MONTHS AND MONTHS and they STILL CANNOT FIND THE WMD? It seems, they have also "disapeared" off the American media.

[RangerSix]

I guess it's perfectly okay for Israel to have WMD and kill Palestinians daily while they fight back with stones and sticks.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

and bombs and ambushes and kidnappings and assassinations and AK-47 rifles and RPG-7s and on and on and on. Palestinian hands are equally dirty. The drama being played out in Israel is one of cause and effect or for you Matrixheads, causality. You seem to imply that the poor innocent Palestinians are completely blameless against the savage Israeli juggernaut. Somehow you made no mention to the causality of the action. Is Israel completely blameless? Of course not. However, in 90% of the time, there seems to be a logical cause and effect with their actions. For instance, bomb is detonated in a market square. Hamas claims responsibility. Israeli tanks and aircraft retaliate against suspected or known Hamas locations which also happens to be colocated next to a school. Children are killed in the process. Who's at fault? Naturally, the Arab media will denounce the attack as yet another Zionist criminal action, but is it really? Does Hamas bear a certain share of the burden and blame? Isn't it part of their tactics to hide behind the skirts of innocents that purpetuates this never ending cycle of violence? Next time you read or hear about some alleged Israeli atrocity; ask yourself what is the cause and effect of that action.

Seems America is blind when it comes to Israel.

Nope, but we do share similarities in our fight against terrorist.

You are gonna say "ISRAEL DOESN'T KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE!" Well, duh. The American media doesn't show that part!

Yes they do, as well as the Arab casualties. Where did you hear we didnt? Arab media perhaps?

Why don't you head down here

No thanks! Been there once, didnt like it.

or even switch on a European new channel to see what's REALLY going on.

As if the Euros are going to be any more objective to a news story than we are? They lost a lot of business contracts when Saddam was booted from power.

America wanted to protect Israel and since Iraq *SUPPOSEDLY* had WMD, Iraq was a threat to Israel and so they attacked them "just to make sure."

Hmmm, let me get this straight. Because you perceive Iraq to be a threat to Israel therefore we, being the US, attacked Iraq to protect Israeli interests. Dude, give it a rest with all this anti-Semitic nonsense. The MidEast/Arab hatred toward Israel is slowly corrupting your culture. Ive never seen a people so consumed in hate. One day, this destructive attitude and behavior is going to eventually implode upon itself and my fear is that it will take the rest of the world along with it.

I mean hell, IT'S BEEN MONTHS AND MONTHS and they STILL CANNOT FIND THE WMD? It seems, they have also "disapeared" off the American media.

Hardly, there is an election in the immediate future. The existence (or lack thereof) of WMD is squarely in the center of debate between both political parties.

[ZAKO]

KAIN5....Get over it.

[dgb]

Watch out, your ignorance is showing! (blush)

The Arabs, be they Egyptian, Iraqi, Jordanian, Palestinian, Syrian or whatever, started, escalated and continue to propgate this Arab-Israeli conflict, while skillfully playing themselves to be victims of "Zionist" agression. The Palistianians have had at least four opportunities ON THE TABLE to make peace and get their own state in the last 50 years, where they would get %90 to %98 of what they consider "Palistine", and every time they have chosen war rather than peace. Israel has shown they are capabale of defeating the combined armies of the Arabs, if they are such blood thirsty genocidists, why don't they just kill all the Palistinains ans forcibly annex the West Bank? The U.N. isn't going to do anything. Maybe becuase, ultimately, the Israeli people just want to be left the F*** alone, and the Arabs won't give them that luxury? Learning to hate Jews is as big a part of Palistinian culture as potty training and the A-B-Cs. And no, I'm not being hyperbolic, belive it or not.

You probably forget that Israel GAVE BACK %90 of the territory they occupied in the 1967 War. You probably forgot that the Arabs invaded Israel on three occasions. You probably forgot that Israeli incursions into neighboring areas have always been responses to bombings or missle attacks. Did you know that Jordan used to control the West Bank, and never offered the Palistinains their own state? Did you know the Jordanians had to crush the PLO as they tried to over throw the Jordanian government? Or maybe you just didn't know it to begin with?

Even the US media has been suckered. Look at the stories in the NY Times or whatever paper you like. When a Palisitian bombs a resturaunt or dance club, all you see is a shell of a building, maybe some rubble, but when the Israeli's raid a hide out or retaliate for a bombing, you see puddles of blood, dead children, coffins, much more personal photography. Why is that? Many AP and Rueters correspondents and most of their sources in the West Bank and Gaza, are shockingly enough, arabs. And I may be wrong, but aren't most "Euro" news agencies state controlled? TV news broadcasts at least? There an unbiased news source for you.

You really should look into the history of the conflict. The Jews/Israelis have tried every thing from passivism to eye for an eye when dealing with the Arabs and nothing works. Why? The Arab leaders want the jews dead, or at least, out of the Middle East. This is their stated goal, never retracted.

So many Palistinian civilians are killed why? Because A. the PLO/PLA terrorist do not wear uniforms. B. Hideout in civilian areas? C. Encourage kids to throw rocks at tanks and armed soldiers? D. Use children as human shields? E. All of the above? If you chose E, you're on the right track. Let;s look at the difference. Israeli's do not target non-cobatants, but it's hard not to take them out when PLO leaders hide among them. Until recently, the Israeli's have put their foot soliders in harms way rather than use airpower to take out targets.

So many Israeli civilians die becuase.

A. The Palistinians deliberately target civilians.

B. See A.

Sorry for the rant, but this is a hot button for me.

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On 12/17/2003 4:28:40 AM KAiN5 wrote:

I guess it's perfectly okay for Israel to have WMD and kill Palestinians daily while they fight back with stones and sticks. Seems America is blind when it comes to Israel. You are gonna say "ISRAEL DOESN'T KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE!" Well, duh. The American media doesn't show that part! Why don't you head down here, or even switch on a European new channel to see what's REALLY going on. America wanted to protect Israel and since Iraq *SUPPOSEDLY* had WMD, Iraq was a threat to Israel and so they attacked them "just to make sure." I mean hell, IT'S BEEN MONTHS AND MONTHS and they STILL CANNOT FIND THE WMD? It seems, they have also "disapeared" off the American media.

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[m00n]

dgb, RangerSix....

Couldn't have said it better myself! Seriously, I couldn't.

Kain, really man, you really need to look at the situation openly. The PLO is the cause of so many Palistinian deaths. It's their own fault. They would rather hate and fight than comprimise and learn to live together. Isreal does not want to fight. As dpb said, they just want to be left alone to live in peace.

It's just like the kid walking by a fence, he sees a dog, picks up a stick and pokes at the dog constantly provoking the dog. Then one day, that dog gets free and bits the crap out of that kid. Kain who is to blame, the kid or the dog?

[KAiN5 (banned )]

[KAiN5 (banned )]

Oh and check this, Bush sued for 9/11:

Open Letter To The President Of The United States

Mr. Bush,

This 'open letter' is coming from my heart. I want you to know that I am neither a Republican nor a Democrat and that this is not an attempt to 'bash the Government'.

You Mr. Bush should be held responsible and liable for any and all acts that were committed to aid in any "cover up" of the tragic events of September 11, 2001. As President you have a duty to protect the American people. On September 11th you did not instruct your staff to issue a nationwide emergency warning/alert to advise us of the attack on America. We had to receive the news of the attacks via the news networks.

In the months leading up to the attacks you were repeatedly advised of a possible attack on American soil. During your daily intelligence briefings you were given information that had been uncovered that the very real possibility existed that certain undesirable elements would use commercial aircraft to destroy certain "target" buildings. You never warned the American people of this possible threat. Who were you protecting?

When you took no responsibility towards protecting the general public from the possibility of attack, you were certainly not upholding the oath you spoke when you took office. In that oath you pledged to uphold the Constitution of the United States of America.

On the morning of the attack, you and members of your staff were fully aware of the unfolding events yet you chose to continue on to the Emma E. Booker Elementary School to proceed with a scheduled event and "photo op". While our nation was under attack you did not appear to blink an eye or shed a tear. You continued on as if everything was "business as usual".

In the days following the attacks all air traffic was grounded and Americans, including myself, were stranded wherever they had been when the flight ban was imposed. I was stranded at Midway Airport in Chicago, unable to continue on to California for my daughter's wedding. Imagine my surprise when I later found out that during this "no fly" period a number of people were flown out of the country on a 747 with Arabic lettering on the fuselage. None of these people were interviewed or questioned by any local, State or Federal agencies. Why were they allowed to leave and who exactly was on that flight. We know for a fact that some of the people on the flight were members of (or related to) the royal family of Saudi Arabia and members of the Bin Laden family. Were these people allowed to leave because of the long-standing relationships that your family has with both families?

It is my belief that you intentionally allowed 9/11 to happen to gather public support for a "war on terrorism". These wars, in Afghanistan and Iraq, have not accomplished what you stated were your goals. Why have you not captured Osama Bin Laden? Where are Saddam's weapons of mass destruction? All that has happened is a bill that is passed before Congress for 87 billion dollars to rebuild what you ordered blown to bits. As an American who lost a loved one in the "war on terror" I do pray and support our troops who were sent to Afghanistan and Iraq by you. These troops have and will continue to die for your lies. As an American I can make this statement as it appears that associates of your family may stand to prosper from the rebuilding of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Mr. Bush the time has come for you to stop your control over us. Stop blocking the release of certain evidence and documents that were discovered by the 9/11 Investigation Commission if you have nothing to hide proving you did not fail to act and prevent the attacks of 9/11. Your reason for not releasing this material is that it is a matter of "national security". When in fact I believe that it is your personal credibility/security that you are concerned with. You do not want the public to know the full extent of your responsibility and involvement.

After 9/11 the Patriot Act and Homeland Security Act were passed. Both of these allow the government to tap your telephone, search your home, and seize whatever they feel they need to do on a whim. They can do this without a judge's review or a warrant. I feel that this is in direct conflict with our rights as stated in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

We the families of 9/11 victims need to have answers to the following questions:

1. Why were 29 pages of the 9/11committee report personally censored at your request?

2. Where are the "black boxes" from Flight 11 and Flight 175?

3. Where are the "voice recorders" from Flight 11 and Flight 175?

4. Why can't we gain access to the complete air traffic control records for Flight 11 and Flight 175?

5. Where are the airport surveillance tapes that show the passengers boarding the doomed flights?

6. When will complete passenger lists for all of the flights be released?

7. Why did your brother Jeb (the Governor of Florida) go to the offices of the Hoffman Aviation School and order that flight records and files be removed? These files were then put on a C130 government cargo plane and flown out of the country. Where were they taken and who ordered it done?

It has been over two years since hundreds of our lost loved ones "remains" have still yet to be identified and their remains placed in a landfill at Fresh Kill. We want our heroes brought back and given a public and proud resting place where we all can pay our respects and honor them. These innocent people never had a chance as they were taken from us on that sad September Day.

In the court of public opinion Mr. Bush, your lies are being uncovered each day. My husband, all of the other victims and their families and our nation as a whole, has been victimized by your failed leadership prior to and after 9/11!

I will prove this in a court of law!

Ellen M. Mariani

Click here.

[m00n]

I can see where you would feed off that letter Kain. Hopefully someone else will come back and blow it full of holes because I don't have time right now.