JewishAMerPrince Posted December 31, 2003 Share Posted December 31, 2003 Steeler....Let me make a recommendation. I own a Rotel RMB-1075 which is a very high quality yet reasonably priced 5 channel amp. It is true audiophile gear, not consumer electronics like most receivers. Mine delivers 125 wpc continuous power all channels driven at rated distortion of .02% even though the specs say only 120wpc. It is a THX certified high current amp with good damping and tons of headroom that no receiver can begin to compete with. It has excellent build quality (on par with many costing 2 to 3 times more). Most of all, I think, sound wise, it is an excellent match for the 7 series. It has an inherent warmth that compliments horn speakers well. It can be had for 10-15% less than it's already very reasonable $999.00 list price. Jerry Rappaport P.S. It only draws 800 watts so you won't have to rewire your house! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hightone Posted December 31, 2003 Share Posted December 31, 2003 Just get something with high current. The ref. series like lots of current. Not a lot of watts are required to drive the speakers to unbareable levels. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdsang Posted December 31, 2003 Share Posted December 31, 2003 I have a question on this whole power thing. Some of you say that haveing more power gives you more bass and tends to even out highs and lows. My question is, what if you have a quailty sub to do you bass? Would you need 200 watts for your speakers still or would you keep with your 100 watt/channel reciver/amp and get the same effect? I only ask because it makes me wonder if it would be worth haveing more power while I have a good sub already. CD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strabo Posted December 31, 2003 Share Posted December 31, 2003 ---------------- On 12/31/2003 5:56:14 PM SteelerFan wrote: My Yamaha puts out 80 watts to each of the front three channels. When I play 2 ch cd's on it I can't imagine needing more power or having more bass. That's with the volume turned up maybe 1/4 of the way. Now when watching movies and running all of the channels it's a different story. I find I must turn up the volume much higher and even with the sub on (I admit it's not a great sub) I still could use more bass. ---------------- Probably two issues here. Movies have a standard to follow. THX IIRC leaves 15dbs headroom on the recording. That would mean that the DVD is recorded at -15dbs. There are no rules for CD's so they are recorded at -5 to -0db with a lot of compression and very little dynamics. This may make up some of what you are hearing as lack of volume. So it may be a weakness in your amp, or it might not. I wouldn't worry about it if it sounds good to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strabo Posted December 31, 2003 Share Posted December 31, 2003 ---------------- On 12/31/2003 7:47:01 PM cdsang wrote: I have a question on this whole power thing. Some of you say that haveing more power gives you more bass and tends to even out highs and lows. My question is, what if you have a quailty sub to do you bass? Would you need 200 watts for your speakers still or would you keep with your 100 watt/channel reciver/amp and get the same effect? I only ask because it makes me wonder if it would be worth haveing more power while I have a good sub already. CD ---------------- In short, you are correct. Spend some time in the two channel forum. There are lot's of people that believe in using a 2 watt amp for sweetness plus a sub to fill in the low end. P.S. There's actually a current thread debating the usability of an 8 watt amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted December 31, 2003 Share Posted December 31, 2003 JBP, The Pioneer Elites make rated power in independent tests with all channels driven. Most other brands do not do as well at making rated except H/K and some Yamahas. The Pioneers can be run with an external amp. Bruinsrme does this with a Parasound. I do it with B&K. The RF-7s have an impedance dip in the bass frequencies down to about three ohms. It does take substantial current to drive them well. I run my RF-7s as small and use a subwoofer with a 650 watt amp. Bill PS: Headroom means that the amp has enough power in reserve to handle dynamic peaks in the program material. For example, your home theater is going along at 85 db and the program has an explosion that takes the sound up to 105 db. It takes a lot of power to do 105 db on all channels at the same time. THX Ultra certified amps can do this with most speakers in a 3,000 cubic foot room. Select is geared to a 2,000 cubic foot room. Many non-THX stand alone amps can do this, but very few receivers can do this. B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTMAN21 Posted December 31, 2003 Share Posted December 31, 2003 One thing I have found is that amps with a high dampening factor perform better than those with low dampening factors. Most receivers do not show this in their specs. I have recently been toying with a B&K 307 as a pre/pro on my Sherbourn amp. The 307 is excellent for a receiver but it's amps do not compare with a seperate amp as the power supply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vital Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 Try to listen to the RF-7s with different receivers. I still have no idea how these companies come up with their watt ratings. I have heard a Sony, Kenwood, Onkyo "granted these are main stream lower end receivers" and so on rated at 100 wpc and the Harman Kardon 325 I have rated at a mere 65 watts in stereo sounds 10x better and blows them away. I don't know if HK rates their wattage lower than it really is or if they are just honest and call it like it is. Either way I can't imagine a serious amp with my RF-7s, something like a B&K 200.7 but I cant wait to hear what it sounds like. When I crank my little HK 325 with any type of hip-hop it is more bass than anyone could want. I can shake my whole side of the apt building and I mean that literally. We are talking 10 units at least that are blasted out of their home from the bass 65 watts can produce. That is only at -15 to -10 also. A good hip-hop song at 10 with 65 watts from my HK is more bass than any car stereo I have ever heard. I have a good friend with two competition Kicker 12s and a nice amp and deck and it cant hit like my RF-7s. I do have a small room and maybe that helps, but either way the bass can be insane. These four 10s can move some air with the right music. Even playing old school rap like Master Ace Born to Roll will thump more than you can stand. Im talking crap coming off the walls and all. Needless to say I wont complete my sub until I move into our house. I have had the off duty police that work for the complex here multiple times already. They came when we had a get together for my birthday party, Labor Day and Christmas night. Living in an apt sucks big time. Anyway, HK makes a serious receiver for someone like me just getting into home audio/theater. I could not be happier and I consider myself very lucky. Believe it or not a sales rep at Best Buy guided me in the right direction. He could have sold me a Kenwood in a heartbeat. I thought Kenwood rocked until he told me I wanted a Harman Kardon that is high current and warm sounding. They didnt even have any HK at the time, I still dont know if they carry the brand. He was looking out for me and after that I came home, jumped on the Internet and researched for days. That is when I found out about HK and other decent receivers. Now I plan to upgrade to tube or maybe a tube pre and a B&K 200.7 at some point but for now I would like to HIGHLY recommend you go and audition a Harman Kardon or a Denon before buying. I scored my HK 325 for 500 bucks on ebay brand new from a very good online dealer. The company has thousands of positive feedback. The word out there is the Denon is not as musical as the HK but I cant say one way or the other since I have not heard it with my RF-7s. Pioneer is good but I don't think they can hang with Harman Kardon as far as home receivers are concerned. After researching I came to find out HK invented the receiver and has been among the best sounding SS "reasonably priced" receivers since day one. As far as bang for the buck, the HK is hard to beat I think unless you go for vintage tube like a Scott or something but that is for 2 channel, not theater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easylistener Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 ---------------- On 12/31/2003 7:47:01 PM cdsang wrote: I have a question on this whole power thing. Some of you say that haveing more power gives you more bass and tends to even out highs and lows. My question is, what if you have a quailty sub to do you bass? Would you need 200 watts for your speakers still or would you keep with your 100 watt/channel reciver/amp and get the same effect? I only ask because it makes me wonder if it would be worth haveing more power while I have a good sub already. CD ---------------- Then why buy the RF7's? I hear this all the time, I will just buy a sub for the lows and cut the speakers at 80hz. Then get book self because you are wasting both woofers in the 7's. I mean waste waste waste. Such a waste. the 7's have such good amazing bass that you will never need a sub for music, and for most people for movies also. Buy the best receiver or pre/pro and amp you can. This is the only advice I can give. I can tell you that there is only one or two receivers I consider worthy enough to buy. The B&K and sunfire! Denon and HK just don't have enough power. Denon 4802r puts out more power than the bigger bother 5803. Almost all amps are advertised as high current so that is not a good thing to look for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 ---------------- On 1/1/2004 8:33:01 AM Vital wrote: Either way I can't imagine a serious amp with my RF-7s, something like a B&K 200.7 but I can’t wait to hear what it sounds like. ---------------- If you are anywhere near the Fredericksburg, VA area, I'll be more than happy to let you listen to mine . The RF-7s with the B&K Ref 200.7 is just friggan unbelievable! Even with a Denon AVR3802 acting as a Pre/Pro (hoping in a couple year to get a B&K Ref 50). Now, granted, I don't listen to Hip-Hop, so I don't know how this would sound with Hip-Hop, but I can imagine it would be quite impressive. I know that with the power/prog metal that I usually do listen to, this thing kicks some serious @$$. About the topic at hand. Given all the recent debate on this whole issue of just how much power one needs to drive thier Klipsch, this is how I see it. If you are going to use your system to watch movies in an HT type setup, I would get all the wattage you can afford. I am running with 200 watts/channel through a very good quality amp myself and I don't regret it. Nice to have all those watts in reserve. Now, if you are just interested in two channel listening, well, than it becomes a matter of what kind of sound you are looking for. Many people seem to like the sweet, warm, delicate sound of the tube sets, while others prefer the raw power and dynamics of the Solid-State amps. I certainly would at least like to try a tube set for amplification myself in two-channel mode, but for HT, I'll stick with my B&K amp (although it is certainly more than capable of some serious two-channel listening). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelerFan Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 ---------------- On 12/31/2003 7:24:07 PM JewishAMerPrince wrote: Steeler....Let me make a recommendation. I own a Rotel RMB-1075 which is a very high quality yet reasonably priced 5 channel amp. It is true audiophile gear, not consumer electronics like most receivers. Mine delivers 125 wpc continuous power all channels driven at rated distortion of .02% even though the specs say only 120wpc. It is a THX certified high current amp with good damping and tons of headroom that no receiver can begin to compete with. It has excellent build quality (on par with many costing 2 to 3 times more). Most of all, I think, sound wise, it is an excellent match for the 7 series. It has an inherent warmth that compliments horn speakers well. It can be had for 10-15% less than it's already very reasonable $999.00 list price. Jerry Rappaport P.S. It only draws 800 watts so you won't have to rewire your house! ---------------- Thanks for the tip Jerry, I'll keep the Rotel in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelerFan Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 For all of you guys who do own the 200watt multi-channel amps, do you have to run a dedicated circuit to run them properly? Would I be okay if I just used the same circuit(15 amp) as I do for the rest of my gear? Don't get me wrong, I still think 100-125 watts would be the way to go as long as I have my sensitive Klipsch speakers. But like I said, there seems to be alot more choice in the 200 watt range. And I suppose if for some reason I decide to buy something less sensitive, pale the thought, I'd be covered I guess. So what do you big amp owners think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 It is highly recommended to run a dedicated 20 amp circuit for big amps like the B&K 200.7. I run all of my home theater components on one 20 amp circuit. I would be more comfortable with two 20 amp circuits. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 the number of watts per channel is not as critical as the quality of the power..... a good stand alone amplifier will sound better than any receiver that i am aware of...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylanl Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 Easylistener, I think you are dead on with your thoughts on the power of the amps (needing 200 - 250 watts ). I have a Marantz 5 channel that puts out 150 x 5 and at high listening levels above 95 hz (Which I feel is not that high) I have watched the clipping lights come on. Now if the sen. on the RF7's is truly 102db at 1 watt how can this possibly be happening? Either the amp is no good or the rating is not totally true. That is the question I asked the Klipsch audio personnel. The answer: The horns give them the sen. and when somthing is heavily laden with Bass the power is needed. I am currently looking at Rotel 1090 to purchase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 What folks repeatedly fail to consider is that transients routinely run 15 to 20 times the average program level. Dolby and THX assume that you will listen at 85 db, but that dynamic peaks will hit 105 db. Each 10 db requires ten times the power. Then do this twice and you need 100 times the power. The RF-7s are rated as 8 ohm speakers; independent tests show 6 ohms. The impedance dips to 3 ohms at 76 Hz. It is not difficult to see why the clipping lights came on. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 Yikes, some of you have gone loony. I can run you out of the room with 40 tube watts. Simple rule of thumb here -- buy your amps by the pound. A 50 wpc amp that weighs 50 pounds will sound better than a 100 wpc amp that weighs 30 pounds. This rule works for standard circuits, and doesn't apply to the new digital amps. Basically, the bigger the iron -- the more slam and control you get. BTW, HT receivers are handicapped because they typically use whimpy power supplies and are forced to feed 5 to 7 channels. The logical upgrade path in HT would be full separates if at all possible. At any rate, you don't need 200 wpc with the RF-7. I would consider that major overkill. Check the weight Check the amperage rating Check for discrete build (as opposed to ICs) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strabo Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 ---------------- On 1/1/2004 11:02:29 PM MrMcGoo wrote: What folks repeatedly fail to consider is that transients routinely run 15 to 20 times the average program level. Dolby and THX assume that you will listen at 85 db, but that dynamic peaks will hit 105 db. Each 10 db requires ten times the power. Then do this twice and you need 100 times the power. The RF-7s are rated as 8 ohm speakers; independent tests show 6 ohms. The impedance dips to 3 ohms at 76 Hz. It is not difficult to see why the clipping lights came on. Bill ---------------- Wow, never actually looked at the numbers, but you are right. Say you are watching a movie that is hitting peaks of 85 dbs (this is usually where I set it), 12 feet away from a pair of 102db efficient speakers. Thats works out to .03 watts. Multiply that by 100 for transients, then double it for the impedence drop and your at 6.25 watts. Not bad. Do the math on say 99 dbs peaks and you now need 200 watts. And 400 watts for 102 db peaks. Yikes! I now see where some clipping can happen. Makes more sense now to cross it over at 80hz to relieve the main amp of all that extra work. In my case I will leave my settings lower, but if you plan to listen louder do your speakers a favor and cross them over higher so you don't abuse them with a DC signal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stream Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 Granted I've never used a 200 or 250 watt SS amp on my 7's, but when I went from a 100wpc SS (an older blah Onkyo) to a 35wpc Cayin tube amp, I experienced a twofold increase in the 7's bark. To my ears, they have twice the power and unf (for lack of a better term). -Jesse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMays Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 I will have to admit that I would rather have seperates featuring a 200 watt amp. However circuits and space make an all in one reciever more desirable to some. I have pushed my RF-7's with a 5 channel 150 watt amp using an Onkyo TXDS 797 as a pre/pro. The difference was dramatic compared to Onkyo's "touted" 100 WPC. When I upgraded to Yamaha I could not tell a huge difference between the "touted" 130 WPC and the 150 watt amp. I simply chose to eliminate the amp to simplify my theater area. I have personally used Onkyo, Denon, & Yamaha and I found the Yamaha to have the best amp section, thats just me...someone elso will have different results. My listening area is about 18 x 18 with 9 foot ceilings and the 130 watt Yamaha will drive anyone out of the room. It's clean, crisp, and has plenty of head room to drive those bullet and explosions. I run a front sub and a rear sub which allows me to set the crossover higher. When I added the rear sub I found I could even lower the output on my front sub. I'm not even sure the windows in the theater room can take my system cranked up. Does seperates sound better than an all-in-one reciever...you bet! However there is a relationship between dollor cost -vs- gained performance. I would love to have the complete Aragon set-up. However a setup like that will cost $7,000 + cables (minus any deals). A top quality (not the middle-of-the road) AV reciever will only cost $2,500 +. I am more of a value shopper which is why I love Klipsch so much. Granted I have not heard Klipschorn in a set-up, if I were to spend the money on seperates in the range I am speaing about I would by driving B & W Nautilus 802's instead. (Please don't take me wrong...I LOVE Klipsch and have two Klipsch set-ups at the house). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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