maxg Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 mdeneen, From what I can see running through this thread you and I are basically on the same page give or take a religious leaning or 2. Nice to see someone in the good ole US of A that understands that there is a major difference between Socialism and Communism. The current ruling parties in both Greece and the UK are socialist parties (although admittedly from their policies you often would be hard pressed to tell where). I joked in a previous post about anyone to the right of Al Gore not reading beyond a certain point. I worry that in the US that does indeed exclude most whilst here in Europe it would include most. ah well - at least we can all agree to horn load our speakers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Mark, That's why we keep you around to protect ourselves form our excesses. Extreemism on either side is to be avoided at all costs. Re the "power" of corporate America. The Federal budget exceeds the total value of the Fortune 500 combined plus the value of all the farm land in America. That is where the true "power" lays. In the last century during the Depression we barely missed becoming a Marxist State. Some of the principles were adopted and work quite well. Others if adopted would have doomed us. It has been proven that the Marxist principle" From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs." results in lower productivity, self esteem, and equal poverty for all(except of course those with taxing ability). Our current economy with a mix seems to work very well. The talented are rewarded, the ambitious risk taker, if successful, is rewarded and the basic needs of all are availiable. Although I may be a Conservative by today's standards, I consider myself a "Scoop Jackson" liberal. Slightly to the right of Newt Gingrich. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Gunman----One thing that makes the Springfield and other Mauser types slow is the cock on opening feature, makes for a very awkward movement. The cock on closing of the Lee-Enfields is much smoother and allows the manipulation of the action while sighting the rifle. One trick of the Mad Minute is to use the thumb and forefinger to work the bolt while pulling the trigger with the middle finger, you can really go to town. Personally I always hunt elephant with the .470 Nitro Express. Woodchucks too. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunman45 Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 ---------------- On 1/8/2004 10:01:29 AM TBrennan wrote: Personally I always hunt elephant with the .470 Nitro Express. Woodchucks too. :-) ---------------- You are a better man than I Gunga Dinn! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Rick----Being all powerful doesn't make a state Socialist. Socialism is about controlling the economic process not the political one. You can have democratic Socialism and totalitarian Socialism just as there are democratic private market economies and totalitarian private market economies. By your lonely definition of socialism I suppose the Roman principate was socialist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 TB, Please enlighten me. Which successful pure socialist democracies are you talking about? Most societies, like the US, are a blend. Mark Most Americans would indeed describe themselves as "liberals". If the defination of was thatr of Scoop jackson, Sam Nunn, John Kennedy. The term liberal in todays polictical spectrum has been co-opted by the "progressives" whose phylosophy most Americans do not embrace. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 "You'll get my chainsaw when they pry my cold dead hands from it!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 mdeneen----Yeah, I know Union guys that vote Republican, I want to smash their heads in, rat bastards. Not many though, most Union guys, at least in the Building Trades, know the story. In Chicago anyway. But the non-Union working class, oy-vey, the way many of them embrace the very people that screw them is amazing, no balls at all. I've come to the conclusion that some people are servile by nature and can no more stand-up and act the man than a worker bee can change it's nature. As you said, tough talk and strutting, acting powerful and being a big Packers fan stand in for actually BEING tough and being powerful. Wanna do something tough? Wanna be manly? Don't posture in a sports bar, take on your boss and DEMAND more money and better conditions. Yeah, that takes a little balls though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 TB, OK I'll give you different working conditions and wages. I'm closing the plant and moving the operation to that socialist heaven, China. Rick Edit: That's why balance is needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 8, 2004 Author Share Posted January 8, 2004 I have little balls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Q: Why don't more mice go to the dance? A: They have little balls. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Rick---Why I know of no democracies which are pure Socialist. Which doesn't change the fact that Socialism is an economic notion more than a political one. Here in The United States we could enact legislation giving workers control of all companies if we chose to do so. I doubt we will. Now the few Socialist programs we have in this country are under attack. No doubt people will eventually come to realize once again why these programs were installed in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 One side wants to eliminate them, one side wants to vastly expand them. What comes out is slight course corrections. Like the prescription drug plan recently passed. Is it everything the liberals wanted? No. Did the conservatives stop it? No. Just a good legislative compromise. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Rick---Are we not to strive to improve our condition? Is the threat that the company will move to make slaves of us all? What about the jobs that can't move? WalMart clerks, warehouse workers, fast-food workers, janitors? If these service jobs are replacing the high-paying manufacturing jobs then these jobs need to become high-paying to take up the slack. Workers at MacDonalds need to make what car assemblers and machinists made. And now the white-collar workers, many of whom were loyal (though underpaid) lackeys of the bosses are getting it stuck in their asses. Now their jobs are more easily sent overseas than blue-collar ones. And Bush is redefining the Federal overtime standards so white-collar workers can't get time and a half after 40 hours. These people are the bedrock of the GOP and now they're gonna get the shaft. I love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 ---------------- On 1/8/2004 11:23:37 AM DeanG wrote: I have little balls. ---------------- So do I but Dynamite comes in small packages they say !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 "WalMart clerks, warehouse workers, fast-food workers, janitors? If these service jobs are replacing the high-paying manufacturing jobs than these jobs need to become high-paying to take up the slack. Workers at MacDonalds need to make what car assemblers and machinists made." What that would do is lower the standard of living for all as the cost of life would soar. There are no chains locking anyone to any job. But, if I went from my job at Wal-mart to your Hall to seek work not knowing anybody and not being a member what reception would I recieve? Today blue collar workers are the backbone of the GOP. Hard working clean living Americans. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Tell me today how a family of SIX, with one chronically ill child, with one working parent in a blue collar job will afford to live as I did (we thought we were "ok" - not poor). They could do it no problem ! They just couldn't live up to today's standards ! They would have to live as people did back in the days you mention. No 2 cars new cars, no 4 TV's , no preprocessed foods and so on. People lived with allot less then ! The only thing that has changed is the enormous dependency on every little comfort in life which were not available when were we Kids. Its are life styles that have forced the income needed ! My wife could quit working tomorrow if we gave up a Car, 4 TV's, 3 PC's, Cable TV, Cell Phones and so on. In fact 15-20 years ago in the Reagan ERA I worked as a Window and Door installer the kids were babies and my wife didn't work we had a new vehicle and a old beater, nice house and so on. We survived very comfortably ! People with gumption and determination can make a descent living no problem. The poor are poor at least to some degree by there own choice. Opportunities are available to anyone in this country why the heck else are foreigners beating are doors down trying to get in ? Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkBK Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Well said NOSValve! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Rick---If you showed up at the hall with no skills we'd tell you to apply for an apprenticeship. If you qualified we'd send you to work and start teaching you the trade. I find it depressing that you think you can only live well if many of your countrymen are poorly paid. At one time the people who made your bicycles, TVs, radios, shoes, clothes and furniture were well paid and I assume you got by. So what's wrong with the new class of low paid workers taking up some of the money that used to go to the guy who made your shoes? Maybe you just don't care about your fellow countrymen, maybe your patriotism is merely self-interest. C'mom buddy, I don't think you're really like that. Think about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Craig---So to the misery of the poor you add contempt? Very admirable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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