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Getting more base from R_-3's & Denon 3801


DrPyro
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I just recently purchased the system below and still in the process of tweeking it. However, I am still not satisified with the lower frequency sounds when playing music (usually Classical with some rock mixed in).

I don't want to get into a discussion of "Large" vs "Small" settings on the Denon receiver. But I had the fronts set to "large" and the Sub set at 120 Hz and I found the lower freq. muttled and dull. As a result I set the fronts to "Small" and the sub to 120 Hz. With this setting I find that the lower freq. are crisper but not well balanced with mids & highs. There also seems to be a "frequency gap" between the low's of the RF-3 and the KSW 12 sub.

I'm am curious if anyone has found a method/setting that would fill in the lower freq. while still keeping a crisp base and is balanced with the highs and mids. (expecially for music)

-Thanks

DrPyro

------------------

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Receiver: Denon AVR-3801

DVD: Denon DVD-1000

Front: RF-3's

Rear: RS-3's

Center: RC-3

SubW: KSW-12

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but if u lower the sub cross then u could cut-off LFE.

see, here's that dilemma again Wink.gif

------------------

Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnects & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z-12 cable

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

Boa's Listenin Lounge:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear)

Monster MCX Biwires

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975)

Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer

Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge

Sega Genesis game player

Sub: None yet

rock on!

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Dr - I assume you have the sub connected via the line level output on the Denon. You might achieve a smoother sound if you hook it to the speaker level, set the fronts to large, then hook the RF-3s into the sub. That will let you use one crossover (in the sub) to balance everything. Also, set sub to NO in the Denon, if you do that, or all the LFE and rear bass will trickle out of the sub line out onto your carpet.

Just my .02. Might be worth a try.

Doug

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I have a Denon 3300 and a 20-39PC SVS sub. I have it connected to the Denon with a single out RCA. I turned my bypass crossover to (on) and let the Denon's bass management filter the 80 Hz and below to my sub. I also have my sub calibrated 2 dbs over my mains. I have my mains set to small.

Does it sound better with your sub on or off using your Denon's OSD. How about sub/fronts on? or OFF?

Just curious, I love my RF3/Denon setup. The SVS was icing on the cake

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I would say this is the most frustrating and interesting topic. Why don't sub and receiver manufacturers get together on this and create a solution.

Unfortunately, the KSW12 does not have a crossover bypass like the SVS and Vel (and the KSW15). Therefore, if you hook up via sub-out on the receiver, you get dual crossovers. This is not good. If you hook up via speaker level, and plug the mains into the sub, the KSW12 has a FIXED output crossover of 100hz. This means, that your mains will NOT get any frequencies over 100 hz, which is pretty high, I think. Now, you have no way of boosting the real low frequency bass with your sub (50 and lower) without sacrificing 50-100 hz bass. It would be nice if the 100 hz OUTPUT crossover wasn't fixed, but would just go with the flow of how you set the adjustable one. As I read the manual, however, this is not the case. This troubles me greatly.cwm23.gif I just realized this, and have since re-tweaked my system in the folowing way:

Now, if you go back to using low level sub out connection, you can set speakers to large, and still get what you want - sort of. Just set the dial where you want on the sub's crossover to boost that frequency you desire. I like it at around 70-80 for music, and 90-100 for HT. All frequencies will be sent to the RF3s, so there is no fear of losing that high bass, even if it is LFE. Remember, on the Denon, it has SUB OUT, and not a dedicated LFE out. Therefore, LFE is also sent to the mains if you set front speakers to large, and bass management to Mains + Sub.

Somebody feel free to correct me here if I'm wrong. This constant adjustment is getting rather tiresome. I think I'll soon just get a Passive SVS, and be done with it. Power it with a seperate amp and EQ, and let my Denon's bass management do all the work. Is there anyway to open up the KSW12, and disable the crossover?????? Or how-about swapping it out for the KSW15's with the bypass? HELP!cwm45.gif

T-man

------------------

KG 5.5 (mains)

KG 2.2v (center)

KG 1 (rears)

KSW-12 (sub)

Denon AVR 681/1601

Toshiba SD-3109 DVD

Kenwood LVD700 LD

Sony CD changer

Sony 27" Trinitron

Sony PLX I

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I have a parasound controller, and it's cutoff is at 80hz, which is what THX recommends. I just switched from a denon 3300, and I have to say, I think that I was getting some bass cancellation due to overlap with the denon, no matter what I set it at. With the parasound, I set my KSW-12 to 120hz (as high as it will go to avoid overlapping the parasound's crossover) and I get MUCH more balanced sound. And I tried everything with the Denon. Is it the quality of the crossover? I have no idea, all I know is it sounds much better. Now I just can't wait until the new Reference subs come out, because the KSW cannot keep up by any means.

------------------

RF-3 Mains

RC-3 Center

RS-3 Surrounds (movies)

RB-5 Surrounds (music)

KSW-12 Sub

Parasound AVC-1800

Parasound HCA-1205A

Pioneer Elite DV-05

Denon CDR-1800

Parasound S/PS-140

Hitachi 43FDX01B

DVDO IScan Pro

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i think the denon like my 2 receivers & most others sends all LFE to the sub out as long as u set sub:yes.

even if u set it's bass control to sub+fronts- that only sends Low Bass from any channels set small also to the front channels. iow, the only way u get LFE to the

fronts is to set the sub:no.

i tried using the front preouts to the sub & setting sub:no & it just didn't sound as good for LFE as that blends some of it in w/ the low bass of the front channels. just seemed LFE was more effective sent to the sub via seperate line interconnect rather than blending together in the front channels w/ speaker cable.

my velo sub does have a cross bypass which i always leave cross out but that still doesn't solve my music/movie(lfe) dilemma (it would if i could switch it w/ the remote as i'm not gonna get up off my hiney to switch in/out or adjust the cross for dif source material). the ideal would be the receiver which allows u to adjust it's low bass crossover/filter. f.e., if i could set that for the front klf-30 to 50hz instead of the set 80hz, then i might get more bass out of them that also blends better

w/ the sub for music. then when i put in an lfe source, all that lfe goes to the sub w/ it's cross out.

the only real solution i've found is to put the fronts small. w/ music low bass the front klf-30 start getting cut at 80hz & blend better w/ the sub though i'd still rather have that lower at say 50-60hz where the 18" velo & the klf start losing their effectiveness

in opposite directions.

then if i put in a 5.1 source, i switch marantz to direct mode & that bypasses the bass management so that

all channels are run full freq, no tone controls or delays, i.e., exactly as it was mixed. this generally works great for movies & concerts as long as it's not a real lousy mix job, which is hard to correct w/ dsp anyway.

i mean even w/ the fronts large it still sounds pretty good, just a lil muddier bass than i prefer w/ music cd in 5 channel stereo. maybe just need to back off on the sub output. i'll keep experimenting.

cwm30.gif

------------------

Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnects & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z-12 cable

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

Boa's Listenin Lounge:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear)

Monster MCX Biwires

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975)

Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer

Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge

Sega Genesis game player

Sub: None yet

rock on!

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quote:

i think the denon like my 2 receivers & most others sends all LFE to the sub out as long as u set sub:yes.


Boa, That's the million dollar question. Does anybody have a definitive answer to this regarding Denon. The manual doesn't even go there. If this is the case than all my bass management logic has been f***ed up for months! As well as all my suggestions given to readers of this board. Oh well, back to the drawing board.cwm15.gif

I just simply don't like the sound of muddy high frequency bass I get when I crank up the crossover. I would rather have louder, low frequency bass where it counts.

Does anybody know of a test DVD that has seperate low bass and LFE signals to test this stuff out. The disks all seem to have a bass sweep, but I want one decoded in the .1 LFE channel only. IT would be nice to have an onscreen display of the frequency being played as it is outputed as well. DUH!

T-man

------------------

KG 5.5 (mains)

KG 2.2v (center)

KG 1 (rears)

KSW-12 (sub)

Denon AVR 681/1601

Toshiba SD-3109 DVD

Kenwood LVD700 LD

Sony CD changer

Sony 27" Trinitron

Sony PLX I

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You raise a good point boa, that I've seen elsewhere on the BB. I would like to see an option for a lower crossover, like the 50hz you said, especially for music. I have to flip switches to run my mains full for music, sub or no sub, and I would rather just set it lower (like 50hz)and forget about it no matter what I'm listening to. I understand why a THX system would require such a high crossover, but in most home systems, it doesn't make much sense to have it set that high. It can't be that expensive to add that option to a controller/receiver. I know I would pay for it. And don't even get me started on DVD-Audio bass management.

------------------

RF-3 Mains

RC-3 Center

RS-3 Surrounds (movies)

RB-5 Surrounds (music)

KSW-12 Sub

Parasound AVC-1800

Parasound HCA-1205A

Pioneer Elite DV-05

Denon CDR-1800

Parasound S/PS-140

Hitachi 43FDX01B

DVDO IScan Pro

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t-man, i'd say i'm 99% sure that's the case w/ the LFE unless a receiver has a seperate LFE control. bass mgmt by design applies only to low bass on the other 5 channels (not the .1 which is the seperate channel ideally designed to be sent directly to a sub).

good point on the test disks. i have avia & mine did not put the sub output on the lfe/.1 channel even though it's a 5.1 disk which totally sucks.

i've read here that the Video Essentials disk does use the .1/LFE channel for that so maybe i'll pick that up.

burch, yea i hear ya. guess that's why popiel's chicken roaster claim to "set it & forget it" is so appealing. Biggrin.gif

& i've found using that direct mode switch makes it easy going from fronts small to large w/ the flick of 1

switch on the remote. & it remembers it for each input device, though that doesn't do me much good since i use

my dvdp also for cds & the digital cable can have either 2 channel or 5.1 channel material.

if i go to direct mode w/ a 2 channel source, it only outputs thru the 2 front channels.

This message has been edited by boa12 on 06-28-2001 at 03:34 PM

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Boa,

I reviewed my manual again, and I think you are right. By setting sub to mains and sub, all it does is give the main channel all the bass that the "small" speakers give up. I needed that review to set me straight.

So here's what I just did. I yanked the sub out cable from the KSW12, and hooked up some 12 guage speaker wire from my "speaker B" terminals to the sub. Running the sub full range, sort of speak.

I set the sub to "off", and the Fronts to large. All else to small. The B channel appears to be getting all the info it needs, including LFE. Need that test disc!. I have Video Essentials, but it is worthless.

I set the cross to about 105 ( LFE only goes up to 120, and that's rare. Remember, the crossover is not a "brick wall" cut-off, so it will still get that 120 when it needs it, just a tiny-bit lower in volume), and cranked up the volume to where I like it. Music and movies sound good with just a tiny tweeking needed depending on source. Sounds pretty damn good, and much tighter this way. Sort of how I remember liking it before reverting back to the dreaded "sub out/in". Only difference now is that my fronts are running full range instead of being cut at 100hz. This sounds the best I've experienced and light worlds better than using the patch cords. Good riddens to them. I'm sticking to this. My KG 5.5s can certainly handle full range.

If I feel like getting off my ***, I can fine tune each CD. Why don't they make these subs with on-screen programming and remotes!?!? That would be cool to adjust the cross and volume "on your ***"!

T-man

------------------

KG 5.5 (mains)

KG 2.2v (center)

KG 1 (rears)

KSW-12 (sub)

Denon AVR 681/1601

Toshiba SD-3109 DVD

Kenwood LVD700 LD

Sony CD changer

Sony 27" Trinitron

Sony PLX I

This message has been edited by t-man on 06-28-2001 at 03:49 PM

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t, 10-4, my velo has a remote but only for power, volume, mute, & reset. seems even those w/ a remote don't have anything for the crossover (in/out or level).

i can see why u'd want to make that change. using

the speaker connection thru the sub to your mains u'd probably be cutting some lfe to the sub if u set it's cross down around 60hz where music should sound about best (depends on a few factors of course though). on the other hand if u moved up the sub's cross u wouldn't

get as much bass quantity from your mains. w/ the b connection u get the full dose to the mains & up to the cross setting for the ksw. though yea you'll probably still have to do that ksw cross tweaking when going between 2-channel music & 5.1 sources. or maybe u can find those perfect settings for the ksw.

but overall more of these receiver makers really need to come out w/ a solution of their own for using big speakers w/ mutichannel HT & big powerful subs.

------------------

Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnects & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z-12 cable

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

Boa's Listenin Lounge:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear)

Monster MCX Biwires

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975)

Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer

Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge

Sega Genesis game player

Sub: None yet

rock on!

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I'd never run speaker wire to or through a powered sub unless i had to like they did with those passive subs back in the 50s. as long as you don't pick up too much

hum in it, a fat shielded cable with a preamp signal from the sub output is the only way to go like boa12 said. it's just that most of the a/v makers haven't gone far enough in the controls for that. If they really want to give us bass management then give us the

variable crossover control in the receiver itself.

------------------

go forth & hump the world

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Forestthump,

Actually, I get less hum with speaker wire, than I do with the patch cord. None of the hum is audible greater than 5 feet from the sub, with NO music playing. That's not really a problem.

In fact, I've read on many websites regarding bass management to really "skip" the sub out connection, because most receivers don't have the right adjustments that you can get from full range speaker connection. All I know is that it works for me!

Happy tweaking!

T-man

------------------

KG 5.5 (mains)

KG 2.2v (center)

KG 1 (rears)

KSW-12 (sub)

Denon AVR 681/1601

Toshiba SD-3109 DVD

Kenwood LVD700 LD

Sony CD changer

Sony 27" Trinitron

Sony PLX I

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Thanks guys for all of your input....

After some tweeking, I decided to set my front speakers to Large, and the cross over to 80Hz.

That seems to do ok (for now).

I wish that the klipsch would make one of the powered reference series with 2 8" woofers and the powered sub. When i listened to the RP-3 (with 1 8" woofer) there just wasn't the clarity and strenght of the Mids that I love so much with the RF-3's

Cheers

DrPyro

------------------

Receiver: Denon AVR-3801

DVD: Denon DVD-1000

Front: RF-3's

Rear: RS-3's

Center: RC-3

SubW: KSW-12

This message has been edited by DrPyro on 07-05-2001 at 11:02 AM

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