endover Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 I've finally got approval from my lovely wife to let me purchase a new receiver over the next couple of months (you can tell who wears the pants in this family) so I'm taking advantage of the opportunity. I'm a 50/50 two channel/home theatre listener. I currently have a really old Onkyo that I'm upgrading and will certainly consider the Onkyo NR801(because I've been very pleased with Onkyo's sound and build quality) but I've also been looking stongly at the Yammie V2400 which seems like a pretty nice rig for the money. I hear from a bunch of you Klipsch folks that the Denon and Harmon are good purchases but I don't really care for the "look" of the Denon and the lower wattage output of the HK. I have a large cathedral ceiling living room and I need some good power to fill it. I can listen all day to the Yammie in the show room but until I get it home and hook it up to my speakers and listen with my ears, I'm probably not going to hear the "high's"(tingy'ness) that everyone seems to talk about when a Yammie is coupled to some Klipsch speakers. Is it really that bad(noticable) and/or is it something that I can remove with the built in manual equalization(for each speaker)? I've got Chorus II's up front and RS-35's in the rear. I don't ever plan on going to a 6.1 or a 7.1 system(famous last words). I think this will be all the cash I get to spend for the next few years. My budget is $800(ish). Whaddayathink? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdrake Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 I think you should not be concerned over the "apparent" lower output of the HK. They are known for having good strong power supplies, and for being somewhat conservative in their ratings. I'm just guessing here, but I bet in a bench test you would find that the output from the Yammy and the HK (and the Denon), all in the comparable price range, will be about equal. Anyone know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcoker Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 Get the Yamaha home and take a listen..You will not be dissapointed. I have yet to figure out the the so called "brightness" some talk about. I agree with you in terms of looks. I cannot understand why some manufactures (denon, intergra, etc) charge $ 800 plus for a receiver and place cheap covers over the front video inputs. However, that said Denon are very nice receivers and may be the best. I would not worry one bit about the wattage from H/K. Many recievers boast wattage claims but cannot back it up in the test lab. H/K are very clean power and can run even the biggest speakers. Also Pioneer and Intergra make very good systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endover Posted March 15, 2004 Author Share Posted March 15, 2004 My closest Yammie dealer is about an hours drive which is far enough away to deter me from taking something home that I might have to take back. This is part of my research to figure out if it's a 90% chance I'll like it or a 50% chance I'll like it.... I need to hit at least a 75% before I'll think about driving back and fourth right now. Do the HK's (and the Elites) give a warmer sound? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrench_peddler Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 HK's are tested with a full spectrum sound to both channels where most others are tested with a 1kHZ test tone to one channel only. Power output to one channel with one tone is going to be higher, not better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 I would think that you would like the Yamaha. It is technically a better piece of gear with better build quality than either Denon or Onkyo for the money. I own a Denon, and wish I would have got a Yamaha. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 Most Yamaha HT units also have a 5 channel EQ for the center channel. Very handy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 My Yami RX-V1 was very brash on my Khorns. I took to feeding the pre-outs for the front channels to my old trusty Nikko to clean it back up. The Yami is much better on the less efficient Heresys. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 ---------------- On 3/15/2004 2:14:06 PM wrench_peddler wrote: HK's are tested with a full spectrum sound to both channels where most others are tested with a 1kHZ test tone to one channel only. Power output to one channel with one tone is going to be higher, not better. ---------------- I don't know what "others" you're referring to, but Yamaha publishes the full-spectrum, all-channels-driven specs on their website. Best Buy, OTOH, loves to publish inflated data on their tags. Perhaps that's where the confusion arises? I know Sony, Pioneer, and Kenwood are all notorious for posting 1Khz single-channel specs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dantfmly Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Don't concern your self with any wattage ratings, they are a misnomer. First thing about wattage ratings is that it is require double the power just to go up 3 db. so if you have 20 watts just to go up 3db from how ever loud that 20 watts is it will will require 40 watts. 80 watts to go up 3 db from that yet again, then 160 watts to go up another 3 db. It is exponential. thae second thing is harmon may rate there product low, but they can cleanly produce what they say theirs does, where most others can't. edit: by the way 3db is the smallest noticable difference in sound that the human ear can detect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 ---------------- On 3/16/2004 5:25:50 AM dantfmly wrote: Don't concern your self with any wattage ratings, they are a misnomer. First thing about wattage ratings is that it is require double the power just to go up 3 db. so if you have 20 watts just to go up 3db from how ever loud that 20 watts is it will will require 40 watts. 80 watts to go up 3 db from that yet again, then 160 watts to go up another 3 db. It is exponential. thae second thing is harmon may rate there product low, but they can cleanly produce what they say theirs does, where most others can't. edit: by the way 3db is the smallest noticable difference in sound that the human ear can detect. ---------------- You are absolutely correct, however, a unit that declares itself to be 110WPC @ 1Khz, 1 channel driven will likely only do about 60W all-channels full-frequency. This is a very big issue because, as you laid out... A 96dB/2.83V/1M rated speaker will output 96dB - 1W 99dB - 2W 102dB - 4W 105dB - 8W 108dB - 16W 111dB - 32W 114dB - 64W 117dB - 128W See the gap? If you're not getting at least 64W out of your amp, you're not going to hit that 114dB mark. That's a very big difference, and that's why you should pay at least cursory attention to the wattage numbers. Furthermore, you are obviously very much in love with the HK (understandably, they make fine amplifiers) but your dismissiveness of "most others" displays your lack of product knowledge. HK is not the only company in the world that makes fine mass-market integrated SS receivers. Yamaha, Marantz, Denon, Sunfire, Integra - this is just a short list amongst many excellent manufacturers. It's OK to really love your receiver (and the manufacturer that makes it) - it's not cool to act like it's the only good product on the market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 ---------------- On 3/15/2004 2:14:06 PM wrench_peddler wrote: HK's are tested with a full spectrum sound to both channels where most others are tested with a 1kHZ test tone to one channel only. Power output to one channel with one tone is going to be higher, not better. ---------------- the rxv-series by yamaha which we sell is not only rated at 20-20kHz but ALSO rated down to 2ohm resistance. VERY impressive as many manufacturers won't rate at 4 ohms or lower because of liability/incapability of being stable at that low a resistance:RXV-2400 (8 ohms 20-20KHz 0.04%thd)120watts) DYNAMIC POWER RATING: 20-20KHz: 8/6/4/2ohms: 155w/195w/250w/330w VERY impressive. i pair yamaha w/klipsch OFTEN both in the showroom and for customers like 'love_hertz' on this bb.HornEd has a yammy rxv3000. i think they sound great w/klipsch. fwiw-i am going to audition a rxv 1400/2400 for my living room system with a pair of cornwalls and heresy2 center and rear surrounds. avman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dantfmly Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 ---------------- You are absolutely correct, however, a unit that declares itself to be 110WPC @ 1Khz, 1 channel driven will likely only do about 60W all-channels full-frequency. This is a very big issue because, as you laid out... A 96dB/2.83V/1M rated speaker will output 96dB - 1W 99dB - 2W 102dB - 4W 105dB - 8W 108dB - 16W 111dB - 32W 114dB - 64W 117dB - 128W See the gap? If you're not getting at least 64W out of your amp, you're not going to hit that 114dB mark. That's a very big difference, and that's why you should pay at least cursory attention to the wattage numbers. Furthermore, you are obviously very much in love with the HK (understandably, they make fine amplifiers) but your dismissiveness of "most others" displays your lack of product knowledge. HK is not the only company in the world that makes fine mass-market integrated SS receivers. Yamaha, Marantz, Denon, Sunfire, Integra - this is just a short list amongst many excellent manufacturers. It's OK to really love your receiver (and the manufacturer that makes it) - it's not cool to act like it's the only good product on the market. ---------------- my apologies i was talking about pioneer, sony, kenwood, and many other brands that a lot of mass market people like to buy. if you had looked at my profile you would have noticed that i own a yamaha. i certainly was not including them. nor any of the other company that you just named, which are also brands that i would recomend to anybody. It is just i have noticed how the really cheap brands like to have real high wattage ratings. and i have seen i lot of uneducated people buyin them just for that. I personally would rather have a 50 watt amp from one of the above named companies vs a 150 watt amp from pioneer or any lower type brand mentioned above in my statement. BTW i am talking about the cheaper stuff. not elite or more expensive stuff. who the hell needs 114 decibles though. geesh tring to shake the walls down. 85 db for more the a few minutes each day over time can make you have significant hearing loss. the only time you need significant power at resonable volumes is for speakers with low SPL ratings. which klipsch does not. i have a set of klf-20's with a 100db SPL rating so my scale goes like so: 100dB - 1W 103dB - 2W 106dB - 4W 109dB - 8W 112dB - 16W 115dB - 32W 118dB - 64W 121dB - 128W so with my 100 wat yamaha amp, i can reach above 118 db and a 50 watt amp i could reach above 115 db, not a big differnce they both make you go deaf quick, and it a not very detectable difference to the ear in volume anyways since 3db is the smallest noticable difference in volume the human ear can really detect. which was my point. and i not spotting of about any brand. that was not intention. i was just telling him not to count the hk out because of wattage ratings. Personally i like yamaha, But i do realise there are other very good brands out there. I just would like people to be more educated before they buy something, make them realize that numbers are not always what they seem, buy a brand by perfomance not just purely by numbers. BTW: those other brands are good also, IMO they just miss represent their watage ratings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 By all means, then, I apologize for the assumption. The really important issue with power is headroom, not maximum volume. Put a 150WPC amp side by side with a 75WPC amp on the same speakers - the 150WPC amp can generate the same output volume, yet work half as hard as the 75. Furthermore, on dynamic peaks at high volumes, the 150 will have enough power to deliver the full transient, where the 75 is more likely to either clip or compress those transients. There's a reason why people invest in massive dedicated SS amplifiers for home theater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.4knee Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 I use the RX V3300 with my Klipsch and I am very impressed with its sound. I was an anti Yamaha type for many years, primarily driven by the harsh sound they produced when paired with Klipsch in the 80's and into the 90s. Their newer units provide a much smother sound IMO. I would not hesitate in recommending a Yamaha/Klipsch mating. If you are asking for percentages I would say high 90s youll like it. I believe your Chorus IIs and RS-35s will work very well with the RX-V2400. You likely to find opinions vary significantly from user to user on this forum that is what make it such a good forum. My recommendation, go with the RX-V2400. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 ---------------- ... who the hell needs 114 decibles though. geesh tring to shake the walls down. 85 db for more the a few minutes each day over time can make you have significant hearing loss. the only time you need significant power at resonable volumes is for speakers with low SPL ratings. which klipsch does not. i have a set of klf-20's with a 100db SPL rating so my scale goes like so: 100dB - 1W 103dB - 2W 106dB - 4W 109dB - 8W 112dB - 16W 115dB - 32W 118dB - 64W 121dB - 128W so with my 100 wat yamaha amp, i can reach above 118 db and a 50 watt amp i could reach above 115 db, not a big differnce they both make you go deaf quick, ---------------- those ratings ARE AT 3.3 FEET FROM THE SPEAKER. i have klf-30's and would have to go from my receiver's internal amps to a 300w.p.c.external amp to notice a significant increase in volume/headroom.(they play loud enough now!) avman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dantfmly Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 case and point about the headroom. i did not think about that but i would still like a lower wattage better amp then a higher wattage lesser amp. and the fact that I CAN'T even get my volume up to half way before it get painfully loud, i would think my 100 WPC had plenty of headroom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 ---------------- On 3/16/2004 12:55:27 PM dantfmly wrote: case and point about the headroom. i did not think about that but i would still like a lower wattage better amp then a higher wattage lesser amp. and the fact that I CAN'T even get my volume up to half way before it get painfully loud, i would think my 100 WPC had plenty of headroom. ---------------- Definitely - but what's better than a high-quality small amp? A high-quality MEGAWATT amp! The lower you can keep the volume on an SS, the better it will sound. If I buy a 1500WPC amp and only use 50W at any given time, that amp is sounding better than any 50WPC SS is capable of sounding. Of course, that's a ridiculous example, although I know studios that swear by megawatt Crowns to power their studio monitors - not for volume's sake, but for transparency and headroom's sake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 ---------------- On 3/16/2004 1:17:23 PM Griffinator wrote: Definitely - but what's better than a high-quality small amp? A high-quality MEGAWATT amp! ---------------- avman replies in his best 'tim the tool man taylor' voice:OHR AHR AHR AHRR!! now griff-ya know some 'tube-ies' would disagree w/big honkin' s.s. amps sounding good.(not me,but i still want to hear a tube amp on my setup @ home ) avman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Definitely correct, AVman - I'd rather have small tubes anyhow, but if you must go SS, go big honkin' SS. My dream SS setup: 4 KHorns, 2 LaScalas, a custom LaScala center, 3 Triad platinum subs (mounted in the wall) and seven Crown 1200W monos. Of course, with a 5 year old in the house, the volume control would be under lock and key. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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