Klipschorns: The best speakers on planet!!

[jmslaw]

Well, my audio nervosa has caused me to move speakers (among other components) in and out of my system like most women change shoes. When I obtained my 2002 Klipschorns over a year ago, I immediately enjoyed them, but felt that something was missing with regard to ultimate transparency as compared to the Magnepans, Logans, Thiels, etc. to which I was familiar. Despite this nagging feeling, I still held on to my Khorns, feeling I would regret selling them. There is a certain organic quality to their sound which is just so damn enjoyable. I have experimented with MANY high-end amps, tube and solid state, including Wavelength, VAIC, CJ, McIntosh, and even the big Krell FPB600 (talk about overkill!!) I even commented on this forum that they sound best with a good push-pull tube amp like the CJ Premier 8.

Most recently, I have had the Thiel CS6 and Audiostatic Wing S speakers in my system, both amazing performers. The Thiels really shone in the bottom frequencies and I was prepared to keep them for a long time. I then played with the Audiostatics, which are, perhaps, the most transparent speaker I have ever heard. They do not, however, possess the dynamic bottom-end which I so covet. I was prepared, however, to keep those just for the pure midband and silky highs. I was prepared to crate the Khorns for their ultimate departure from my home. Just for giggles, I decided to hook them up to my Krell FPB600 and CJ Premier 16lsmk.II driving the Northstar 192 combo. As expected, the stats trounced the Khorns, notably in the bottom-end which was boomy and lacking in detail. I still have my Wavelength Cardinals with the WE300b tubes. I acquired a pair of Phillips 5ar4 tubes which I had not yet used. I replaced the Krell amp and VOILA....... THE KHORNS SOUNDED LIKE DIFFERENT SPEAKERS!!!!! Apparently, during my initial pairing with the Khorns, the Cardinals had a bad tube which affected their performance. All of the sudden, the bass firmed up and gained a level of harmonic rightness I have not heard before on these speakers. EVERYTHING just jelled! I have spent the past week going through all my reference discs and have come to the following conclusion: The Klipschorns are world-class speakers under the right circumstances. The Wavelength Cardinals transformed my Khorns into a crystal-clear window into the music. My father, also an avid audiophile commented how my system has never sounded better. Yes, the Audiostatics are more transparent and the Thiels have better bottom-end extension. Taken on the whole, however, the Khorns sound more like the real thing. Music is alive. Timbre is natural. They energize the room in a way that mortal speakers just cannot do. If I think about selling my Khorns again, please stop me. This is, of course, assuming that my wife does not have me committed. I really believe that I am off the speaker merry-go-round indefinately.

[dubai2000]

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On 3/15/2004 3:41:13 PM jmslaw wrote:

...the Khorns sound more like the real thing. Music is alive. Timbre is natural. They energize the room in a way that mortal speakers just cannot do.

THAT'S IT....couldn't have said it any better...indeed for many (myself included) the FINAL speaker.

Glad things turned out the way they did before you started selling them. Enjoy!

Wolfram

[Colin]

I will never part with mine, upgrade sure, mod away sure, but never let them go!

[D-MAN]

You definately are running some clean gear. Judging by that equipment list, do you really expect us to believe that you will ever settle down with one set of speakers?

The important difference in comparing Khorns against other speakers is this (IMO):

With Khorns, you are listening to the room with Khorns in it. With other speakers, you tend to listen to the speakers in the room (due to dynamic compression inherent in the design(s)). This theory is seemingly born out by the recommended placement of the other speakers in question; typically they are placed well away from all walls to prevent reflections, etc.

I think that Khorns mate to the environment in a way that forces some requirements in the room that other speakers do not. Some careful room treatments may clarify the soundstage for you. It also sounds to me like you are not getting the bass output from the Khorns that the design is capable of producing. Frankly, I have never heard better bass than I did from a friends Khorn setup; I can't seem to achieve that in my listening space either, but I know that it can be done but unfortunately it is a room-dimension issue, not easily resolved...

The Khorn's wide dispersion angles of the mid and high frequency horns (especially the mid) also promote reflections that IMO need to be more controlled if imaging is more important than overage coverage. This can again be tamed by approprate room treatments.

Having heard the big Magneplaners and other electrostats, I can say a couple of things about the comparison with Khorns. The Khorns produce a bigger soundstage and are subject to more room reflections (and modes) than other less efficient speakers. This causes indistinct imaging and apparent soundstage aberations, such as image movement caused by frequency changes, etc.

If the environment is tamed appropriately, the effect can be astonishing, the dynamics and clarity can scare a cat (it does mine) and the convincing quality of having performers actually in the space with you (and the sense that the space is quite a bit larger than it really is).

Khorns can give me chills up the spine, something that no other speakers have ever done.

The Magnepans image like SOB's but the soundstage only appears between them and they tend to be in the "middle" of the listening space, so it ain't that big, typically, whereas the Khorns seemingly will "disappear" in a seemingly enlarged space. Also, the life-like quality wasn't there. At least, it didn't convince me.

So I agree with your choice. There are "sound" reasons behind it. The room and associated tweaks will either make or break a Khorn setup. The design itself is truly world-class and is hard to beat at its price point.

DM

[jmslaw]

DM:

Good analysis of Khorns' strengths. Yeah, they really do disappear. A very effective treatment I am using is corner bass traps in the 2 non-Klipsched corners. They really help better-define the lowest frequencies. I don't think I am having problem getting low bass, certainly not now, anyway. I was, however, not getting very tight and well-defined bass prior to installing the Wavelength cardinals. Even the big CJ8s left the bottom a little flabby. I think the Cardinals are operating in their comfort-zone as opposed to the bigger amps which were merely in idle. I used the Stereophile Test disc 2 to determine that I have usable output to 31.5hz and can detect some bass at 25hz. That's plenty low for me, and now it is controlled. As for soundstage, I feel the Khorns are competitive with the best imagers around. Unlike most planars, the image doesn't fall apart when one moves 6" from the epicenter.

Colin:

You have to review the latest version of the Khorns. The world deserves to know this 50+ year old design is alive and well!

[jdm56]

...oh never mind...

[BigBusa]

WOW ...what would we do without silly adjectives?

transparency, organic, transparent, dynamic, silky, boomy, firmed up, harmonic rightness, jelled, crystal clear, extension, timbre, energize, mortal,

[TBrennan]

Dman---The wide dispersion of the KHorm mids and highs? Perhaps compared to ESs or Masggies but as horns go I'd say the flares used in the KHorn are on the narrow directivity side. Indeed one of the best mods for certain large Klipsch speakers (in my opinion of course) is to replace that mid horn with a horn with a wider pattern.

The replacement of the K-400 with the 120 degree EV SM-120A made a world of difference in taming the fierceness of LaScalas. However the mandated corner placement of the KHorns may by it's nature ameliorate the problems of the narrow directivity horns used. That is too say the last LSs I heard sounded fierce, as usual; the last KHorns I heard were glorious.

[sunnysal]

a gordon rankin amp and k-horns? sounds right to me! glad you found what you were looking for, right at home! warm regards, tony

[Klipschfoot]

I have a pair of old Magnepan MG-1 and have to say that sitting in the sweet spot (which is about 1 foot wide) produces a sense of "being there" like I have never heard. But, listening to them off axis seems a pitiful waste of money for such a room-dominating speaker. If the newer and better models have a broader sweet spot and can fill a room, I would like to hear someone say so.

Myy altec horns reproduce great music off-axis, which is what the Khorns do also, maybe better; I dunno since I have never heard them. I posted one this once before: http://invalid.ed.unit.no/~dunker/saidhorn.html. These statements really make you feel that you have discovered something special.

[D-MAN]

Tom,

Hey - aren't you the guy with the pair of JBL tweeters on a Khorn bin? Aren't they 120 degrees dispersion both directions? Hmmmmmm.

Yeah, I have arrived at the thought of gaining more directional control and less reflectivity problems if I go with less horizontal coverage on the upper horns.

In my room which is 13 ft. wide and 7 ft ceiling, I am considering that I could use a 60 degree for more control and less reflections vs. the 90 which I have.

For the tweeter, I am running vertical for a 50 degree spread which seems to be fine. The tweeter isn't a major problem.

This is an experimental approach to handling a marginal space for Khorns. I ain't sayin that its the only way to go...

DM

[TBrennan]

Dman----No, I'm not using KHorns with JBL tweets.

One of the great things about DIY horns is the ability to control dirctivity. I've messed with a passel of horns ranging from 60 to 130 degrees horizontal and I've come to the conclusion that directivity has more effect on the actual sound of the horn than anything else. I'm talking not only the rated pattern but the "auto eq" effect of horns with collapsing directivity as frequency increases such as Altec radial horns and Edgar saladbowls.

In my last full-bore, big-block horn rig I found that horns with a pattern around 90 degrees worked best and that 130 degree McCauley lenses made for swell surround. Much depends of course on the room and placement.

[jorjen]

.....and I am picking up a pair next Sunday! Oops, wrong thread. I thought this was that 7 word sentence continuance game thread.

[D-MAN]

Tom, sorry, I thought that was you with the JBLs.

At any rate, very interesting thought. Do you think that

tighter dispersion results in more harshness or edginess?

DM

[BackBurner]

While the klipschorn is the flagship and foundation of the klipsch name , sadly i'll have to be the lone soul to disagree.

Flame me all you want " but " at the price point " yes " the klipschorn is a fantastic deal a great speaker , but thats all .

You guys can afford klipschorns, thats what makes them so great along with driving them with micro watts of power. If your back pocket was stuffed with bills you'd soon find out theres a whole other hi-fi world out there, none of you venture there because it's simply out of reach. I worked along side men who spent more money on lunch then most of us have invested in our kits. But i was just that " a worker " not a player .

I own klipschorns and love them to death , because i can afford them but if i had an unlimited line of cash the klipshorns would find there way into my garage in a big hurry.

My last boss had a pair of wilson audio's in his office that cost more than my house , they sounded so good i can't even begin to describe it.

Sorry to burst your bubble but if you walk around with blinders on long enough your going to bump into something that hurts. It's a nice gesture to pat each other on the backs once and awhile but don't play the fool along the way.

PS : This is not a flame thread , i'm speaking from 15 years as a roady and recording studio set up man . I'm by no means an expert , but i've listened to just about every speaker built on this contenent and just giving an opinion on whats appealing to my ears, others may disagree and thats ok . Audio is a very personal experiance that has a lot to do with taste.

No harm intended, signed : william casey

[TBrennan]

D-Man---It's been my experience that narrower dispersion can result in edginess and fierceness. The key word here is "can", I won't say "will". But bunching the energy into a tighter pattern will increase the response on axis,sometimes detrimentally. But much depends on the room, listening distance, the drivers used and so forth that cut and dried rules are impossible.

When I used those 130 degree McCauleys on my front speakers (which by the way were pushed hard into the corners the way KHorns would be) they produced a huge, very spacious image and a big "wrap-around" sound because they were bouncing lots of energy of the side walls. Now I think that many people would have liked that image but it was too much for me. So preference must be accounted for too and one fella's preference is as good as another's.

But in another room, with the speakers well away from the sidewalls, horns with a similar wide pattern, the EV SM-120As I mentioned, sounded jsut right imagewise.

One of the most open images I ever had was with Altec 811B horns rotated 90 degrees so the wider dispersion was vertical instead of horizontal. That it worked the way it did made no sense to me but there you go. :-) You just gotta putz around with the things.

[tubeglow]

Great thread Jmslaw and great response DMan...after 20 years of my Heresys being my main speaker, I took them down to the family vacation home in Scottsdale...tried numerous speakers thinking there had to be someting new/better in those years...not ...picked up my Corns and all of the sudden my whole system was whole again.

Reminds me of an experience in 1984 when I had the opportunity to hear Khorns compared to IMF Super Application Monitors in Frankfurt,germany. The IMFs were something else again in the showroom. Bass so low, it pounded your chest, clean, clear, awesome. First speaker i had ever heard that had bested Khorns in a side by side (to my ears)...3 things kept me away from them...1). they were twice as expensive asthe Khorns...2). the effeciency was 80 db @ 1 meter...3) I had never heard of them. ...Thank God...IMF, long gone...Klipsch still here...don't have Khorns yet...but long live Heritage. Mark.

[D-MAN]

Tom, roger that.

DM

[Daddy Dee]

Backburner,

I think I hear what you are saying and find that it in no way diminishes the Khorns. After all, if you've got 30 million bucks to spend, you don't have to fly to Jamaica for vacation, you can fly with the Russians in space for a couple of weeks.

One part of this thread I'd echo. I was also surprised as heck to find the Khorns disappearing in the room.

[LOADEDTUNES]

Backburner : Don't even bother going there , i went down that road 2 years ago when i first found this site. These guy's will just ignore anything that does'nt include there klipsch gear.

You can't know what steak taste like when you eat hamburger every day , all you'll get is the meat is meat arguement.

PS : I enjoy your posts on the bddesign site .