Klipshorn OLD Vs. NEW

[fini]

Andy,

There is only one "O." I wonder if Klipsch kept track of this stuff? Man, probably no other speaker line in the world where owners get this involved, eh? I think it's very cool. I love the history aspect. I jusy picked up a copy of the PWK bio. I'll have to get YOU to sign it!

[Shock-Late]

I just looked at the new klipschorn specs; i thought they were almost the same as the old one, but I see now that the mid/tweet x-over point is now at 4,5KHz instead of the "historical" 6KHz, 450Hz fir the bass instead of 400Hz, and that the drivers have changed to K77F and K55X or something... when did those changes occur? and....WHY???

[tgourlie]

The new crossover points are because of the new drivers. I suspect the change occured 2003 when the line was reintroduced. If these new line of k-horns are that much better than the originals, as a selling point maybe Klipsch should release frequency response graphs to compare the two to each each other. Why wouldn't they, ....could it be that the originals would have a flatter response than the new line!

[j-malotky]

Todd

Last summer Trey did share chamber graphs on the AA, ALK and AK-4 networks. Klipsch has been very generous sharing data with us, other than the obvious designs of the models still in production.

The problem when they re-released the heritage line was that the drivers of old are next to impossible to manufacture since the original manufacturer sold half of the driver design to one company and the other half to another. Instead of spending a fortune subcontracting to both, they came up with a new set of drivers and designed the AK-4 to be used with the new set of drivers.

If I remember right, they used the AA curves as there model to achieve.

If you wanted, Klipsch does sell a complete AK-4 / driver replacement kit for $1800 if you want the latest new drivers.

Otherwise, being a member here, there are a lot of people to help you maximize your older Khorns.

I think my '83s sound top notch

JM

[tgourlie]

J-M

You sure do know your stuff! I'll run a search for those chamber results. If I translate this right... Klipsch used the old k-horns with the M and V drivers with the AA network(second A is the tweeter protection model of the A networks) as a template for the F and X drivers with the AK-4 network... does that sound about right? Whatever k-horn I get, I am sure that it will sound great. What I am thinking about is getting an older k-horn and do what I can, within economic reason, to tweak em' as best I can. And then use the money I would save to either get some SS seperates, or to get a decent tube setup. Then when I get serious cash, I can use the old pair for a 2nd system to tweak with, and get some new ones for the serious system.

[j-malotky]

Todd

Thanks for the complement, but most of what I have learned is from much more knowledgeable people here.

The AA was originally designed for the older Alnico magnet drivers, say pre '81 ish?? When Alnico was hard to get becasue of the South African political problems, Klipsch made the change to "Mud" magnets. Crossovers changed to match drivers and to mostly to add protection for the high wattage high current SS amps people were using. The original Khorn had a lifetime guarentee, Klipsch backed it down to a 5 year because of driver blows from clipping and an overall general use of too much power.

The AK network of the early '80s was Klipsch's first attemp to protect, and is the only network we all agree on that is a dog, but is easily replaced.

The ALK and AA, and A networks have no protection, but sound great. The AK-3 and 4 also sound great but have some protection.

You are in the right place to learn, there is a lot of knowledge posted on the Forum and a lot of helpfull people who share a lot of information.

JM

[ZAKO]

There,s no such thing as mud magnets. Ferrite magnets are ceramics made from iron & boron with a small amount of strontium. By weight they are stronger than alnico equivalents but less than newer neodymium. Ceramics are quite brittle but are most economical for their strength

[sheltie dave]

Todd, I found it more practical to get the setup, and then tweak, rather than tweak and then buy differing equipment. It is always better to calibrate a system en toto, rather than shotgunning with the hope that your changes will be beneficial down the road with other stuff

[TBrennan]

The cobalt for Alnico came from Zaire. During a rebellion there in the 1970s many of the Belgian and French engineers who ran the mines were massacred by rebels. Their families were killed too.

This led to an exodus of the Europeans from the area and the mines fell into disuse. The French sent the Foreign Legion into Zaire to protect the Europeans and expedite the evacuation.

Cobalt production may be back up for all I know but as far as speakers go it's a dead issue; ferrite is superior to Alnico. Though the Japanese still make Alnico drivers for cultists and JBL is making some Alnicos again for the Japanese market. But mind that the Japanese market is much driven by appearance issues and Alnico can make for a very pretty driver.

[HDBRbuilder]

To expand a bit on what Tom said, it was PRIMARILY the Belgian Para-Commando battalions who were called into Zaire (since it had previously been the BELGIAN Congo), but a small force of French Foreign Legionairres was sent in as support and service support elements to augment the Belgian Para's in evacuation of the Europeans from that country during the civil war there.

One humorous sidenote is that the C-130 aircraft that brought the Belgian Para-Commandos to Zaire had just been purchased by the Belgians, and still had U.S. markings on them. There was not enough time to paint over the U.S. markings with Belgian markings, so they just used Belgian markings on heavy paper that was duct-taped over the U.S. markings on those aircraft. Of course, those taped-on Belgian markings blew off the aircraft enroute to Zaire, and as the planes flew into Zaire, it was INITIALLY reported by the press there that it was OUR troops who were going in to help quell the uprising.

I was lucky enough to spend a decent amount of time training with Belgian Para Commandos from 1973-1976 to appreciate the quality of those soldiers during that time frame and to hear a number of stories about that uprising. I was also lucky enough to have spent my Infantry Officer Basic Course at Ft Benning in 1986 with a fellow student who was FROM Zaire, and who had been in Belgium at the time while finishing up his Commando Training, and who was on that mission as a sergeant. Zaire sends quite a few of their best soldiers to Belgium to be trained at the Commando school there...which is basically an exact copy of the training program given to the British SAS Commandos in WWII...IOW...pretty damned tough! As a matter of fact, the Belgian Commando Badge is a duplicate of the WWII-era British SAS Commando badge!...just as the Belgian para wings are basically a duplicate of British WWII-era cloth para wings! Belgium has no "regular" paratroop units. ALL there paratroop infantry are COMMANDOS, having to graduate Commando school BEFORE being allowed to go to jump school. This makes their paratroop infantry basically MORE akin to our Ranger Battalions in training, instead of being akin to our 82nd Airborne Division.

South Africa also played a part in this because, although the cobalt was MINED in Zaire, it was PROCESSED in South Africa, which technically made it an "export product" of South Africa. South Africa's apartheid stance at the time caused this processed cobalt, as an export item, to fall under the guidelines of those many products that a large number of countries (including the USA)refused to import due to that same apartheid stance of the South African government.

There were other sources of cobalt in the world, but only two READY sources that were cost-effective for use in manufacturing at THAT time...Red China and the USSR had the most inexpensively-priced cobalt reserves but our government was swaying back and forth with that of the USSR in detente during those years, which made that cobalt an unsteady/unreliable source at best, and our government was also at odds with the government of Red China during that time resulting in the same dilemna for manufacturers.

So, since the main source our manufacturing used for cobalt had been the Zaire/South Africa connection, it pretty much dried-up as an import during that time, which forced the use of more costly sources of cobalt (such as our own), thereby driving up the cost of manufacture of AlNiCo magnets, which expedited the use of ferrite MUD slurry ceramic magnets in place of the AlNiCo ones previously used.

The technology for this changeover to ferrite mud slurry ceramic magnets was usable for many applications for larger drivers' magnets (ie., woofers and such), but was still running into complications for some of the smaller magnets used for tweeters and such, which required further RAPID technological advances as the cobalt out-sourcing dried-up. These needed technological advancements (primarily aimed at magnetic field consistency for quality control purposes AND toughness of the ceramic so that it wouldn't break/crack as easily when used in smaller magnets)occurred rather rapidly which allowed for the changeover in a matter of a year or so BEFORE the stores of industrial-use cobalt ran out.

If I remember correctly, the adoption of the ferrite magnet for the K77M tweeter made by Electro-Voice to replace the K77 AlNiCo tweeter previously made by them, just showed an average drop of one-half dB in the K77M performance with the newer magnet medium, which was close enough to need no changes in the Heritage speakers in order to begin using them in place of the AlNiCo K77 tweeters.

When the K77M tweeters first began arriving at the plant, there were quite a few more returns sent back to Electro-Voice due to quality control than there had been previously with the AlNiCo K77 tweeters, but that soon changed and the return rate dropped to its earlier levels within a year or so. MOST of the returns were primarily due to fractures of the ceramic magnet material which occurred in shipping, but changes in packaging the units for shipping soon solved that problem. We had also had that problem previously with the ferrite ceramic woofers coming in for a short time...again changes in packaging for shipment to us solved most of those problems.

There is much discussion of preferences of K77 AlNiCo tweeters over K77M ferrite tweeters (and vice versa), but few if any could discern any audible differences between the two in Heritage speakers' performance. The AlNiCo magnets tend to demagnetize over time, and are highly susceptible to demagnetization due to blows that may occur in shipping, etc. The Ferrite magnets tend to retain their magnetic field strength over time much better than the AlNiCo ones do, with blows to the magnets not adversely affecting the magnetic field as on the AlNiCo magnets. One thing though, the exposed magnet material of the ferrite magnets CAN allow for breaking of those magnets , especially in some of the earliest-manufactured ones...for the first year or so of manufacture, in particular. The AlNiCo ones had a protective cover installed over the magnet material, which may or may not help in this case, depending on the severity of the blow induced to the magnet structure.

My personal opnion is that EITHER of these tweeters in new-spec condition is viable, but over time, the K77M may be the best way to go, due to its not tending to lose as much of its magnetic field over time.

[TBrennan]

Builder----To expand on what you said; Alnico magnets are VERY subject to demagnetization caused by the strong magnetic field that occurs when a voice-coil burns out. ANY, I repeat, ANY Alnico magneted driver that needs a replacement diaphragm shold be assumed to have been severely demagged.

What this means is that an Alnico K-77 with a weak magnet will not extend as high in frequency response as one with a fully charged magnet. Efficiency may still stay the same; it's the high end that needs the magnetic muscle to overcome the diaphragm's inertia at high frequencies.

One of the fellas over at the Lansing forum has tested a great many blown Alnico JBL drivers for magnetic stength and NONE he's tested has been up to snuff.

So if you're replacing a diaphragm in an Alnico K-55 or K-77 you need to send it out to a rebuilder that can recharge the magnet, otherwise you're just jerking-off. Orange County and Great Plains recharge magnets.

There's another reason why rebuilding K-77s may be an exercise in futility but one thing at a time. :-)

[tgourlie]

To relieve stress, do NOT recharge your Alnico magnet once a day!

[ZAKO]

To relieve stress get rid of the K77 & install something better.

[tcb]

----------------

On 4/7/2004 9:05:14 AM Shock-Late wrote:

I just looked at the new klipschorn specs; i thought they were almost the same as the old one, but I see now that the mid/tweet x-over point is now at 4,5KHz instead of the "historical" 6KHz, 450Hz fir the bass instead of 400Hz, and that the drivers have changed to K77F and K55X or something... when did those changes occur? and....WHY???

----------------

I just spoke this week with Steve Phillips from Klipsch about upgrade from my AK-3 crossover to AK-4.He told me the only reason Klipsch change the crossovers,was because of the drivers.Electro-voice does not provide anymore drivers for Klipsch.....The new drivers required changing crossovers version,He's honest opinion was the old AK-3 are the same if not better then new AK-4