hwatkins Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 ---------------- On 4/20/2004 2:17:16 AM Tom Mobley wrote: here ya go, fini. a little more accurate view of BfC. Read in detail, quiz tomorrow. ---------------- Tom - I like you bunches, so please don't take this as anything other than intended. Unfortunately, the response to Moore's bias (yep he is bias and has a propensity to take datum and apply specifically according to preconcieved notions) by the article you reference is often bias and selectively interested in data to meet a preconcieved objective. The article is dauntingly long, but it offers some excellent opportunities to do your own research. As is often the case, I (and probably you as well) don't have the time to point by point research. I do have a couple of spots that I have researched previously that I would point out - First, the article moves into familiar NRA rhetoric on deaths by gun toting societies that is patently false (in all of western civilizations reasonable records are kept regarding cause of death and as a whole - excluding a very limited group of exceptions - there is overwhelming data to suggest effective gun control reduces a society's homicide rates) Second, it is an unfortunate fact that the U.S. continued to supply dollars to the Taliban in a continuation of a misguided 1980's solution to support the fight against Russia. It was labeled a 'humanitarian' aid package - I don't think it would have survived if being called 'arm the Taliban'. The exact number is hard to pin down because part of the dollars were really used for humanitarian aid. I am not taking a strong position (not that I don't have one) in this discussion. As it started (shooting guns and some unique guns) I was interested. I am a shooter and hunter myself. Unfortunately I have in the past been quite irritated by both the Moore type bias and the NRA bias - both tend to try and deliver a message that my limited research makes me question. It becomes difficult to repress the feeling that I have been insulted. That kinda felt good - now back to your regularly scheduled programming.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 ---------------- On 4/20/2004 8:37:47 AM hwatkins wrote: Unfortunately I have in the past been quite irritated by both the Moore type bias and the NRA bias - both tend to try and deliver a message that my limited research makes me question. ---------------- Great! It's good to question! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwm Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 "in all of western civilizations reasonable records are kept regarding cause of death and as a whole - excluding a very limited group of exceptions - there is overwhelming data to suggest effective gun control reduces a society's homicide rates" This statistic is interesting but effectively bypasses the fact that in at least two countries (Australia and the U.K.) where draconian gun laws have been put into effect, the crime rate OVERALL has increased tremendously. Look it up. Additionally the statistic is misleading because one must look at who specifically is committing these homicides and invariably it is mainly the criminals killing other criminals and I might add with illegally obtained weapons. This particular piece of emotion over proper statistical analysis is endemic to the U.S., particulary with that social cancer called "political correctness" thrown into the mix........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 Oops, forgot about this thread. Yeah, I've seen BFC twice. Once, just to watch it, and a second time after all the reading. I don't think the SSRIs had anything to do with it. They were ill to begin with, and if anything, they were probably under- medicated, or on the wrong medication all together. Shooters just enjoy shooting, and we use shooting bad guys as an excuse to keep shooting. But really, we just enjoy the recreational aspect of it. Of course, I would love to shoot a bad guy. You know, practical application and all that. That's the nice thing about Conceal Carry -- I can now shoot bad guys recreationally. I don't think there is any reason to be consumed by fear, but I think it's a good idea to be aware that it's not always safe out there. What's wrong with being prepared? The only thing I'm afraid of is driving around and seeing someone toting a SET amp around. I don't know if I have that much self control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 ---------------- On 4/23/2004 6:51:16 AM DeanG wrote: I don't think there is any reason to be consumed by fear, but I think it's a good idea to be aware that it's not always safe out there. What's wrong with being prepared? ---------------- What if we all prepared for love, happiness and peace? I can see people being afraid of that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hwatkins Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 Dean - I ain't much into shooting people, but I have shot amps before. Unfortunately, the amp of choice for shooting by this forum would be the solid state and quite honestly it is a disappointing experience - the chasis just wobbles a bit with tiny pieces of shrapnel escaping the exit hole. Now, when you hit a tube amp correctly there is a chain reaction explosion of tubes that is a thing of beauty. Another life lesson..... cwm - That is an interesting thought - I will do as you suggest and see if I can find any meaningful data. If it makes some sense to me I'll get back with my thoughts (unfortunately when you research less than simplistic data the assumptions can become too great to resolve into a meaningful statistic - the bane of trying to gather data to develop an informed opinion). One of my favorite quirks sited a couple of decades ago was that while Singapore had cleaned up its act to become a tourist site, overall crime had increased by close to 100%. It seems this was the result of a very large effort to enforce 'nuasance' crimes - very rigid enforcement of vagrancy (you shouldn't stand in one place more than 10 minutes if you don't look like a tourist), Panhandling (at least until they figured out tourists liked the knock offs and even more specifically - they got darn good at making good quality knock offs) and yes, even spitting your gum out (that was even included in 'things to beware of' in most tourist publications). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Favog Posted April 23, 2004 Author Share Posted April 23, 2004 ---------------- On 4/23/2004 8:09:03 AM fini wrote: ---------------- What if we all prepared for love, happiness and peace? I can see people being afraid of that! ---------------- I think the mass media would make sure you would be just to create the panic they are (almost) sworn to create. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hwatkins Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 ---------------- On 4/23/2004 8:09:03 AM fini wrote: What if we all prepared for love, happiness and peace? I can see people being afraid of that! ---------------- Wow Fini - great thought. I remember living that philosophy for quite some time (my attempts in latter parts of my journey haven't been as pure). It seemed to peaked one wonderful night in the middle seventies - that was the same night that I was able to clearly make out the faces of the Beatles on a poster of Andy Warhol's Campbell soup can. I can't look at that painting without severe reaction..... Henry The CLose Poser (a sideways anti- post closer?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 ---------------- On 4/23/2004 8:17:21 AM Tom Blasing wrote: ---------------- On 4/23/2004 8:09:03 AM fini wrote: ---------------- What if we all prepared for love, happiness and peace? I can see people being afraid of that! ---------------- I think the mass media would make sure you would be just to create the panic they are (almost) sworn to create. ---------------- Well, let's face it: If we're not afraid, there's no need to buy, plain and simple. Everything from deodorant to H-bombs. Nothing to do with "need." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodog Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 ---------------- On 4/19/2004 9:02:50 PM fini wrote: A major revelation (for me) in this film is the realization that fear is used as a motivator for most everything in this country, and may be what separates us from the rest of the world. Please think hard about this. See the film. Keep your guns. Smile at other people at the store, for Christ's sake. ---------------- Fini, this made me remember Bill HIcks and something he said at the end of one of his comedy routines. here 'tis "The world is like a ride in an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it, you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills and it's very brightly coloured and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time and they begin to question, is this real, or is this just a ride? And other people have remembered, and they come back to us, they say, "Hey - don't worry, don't be afraid, ever, because, this is just a ride..." And we... kill those people. "We have a lot invested in this ride. Shut him up. Look at my furrows of worry. Look at my big bank account and my family. This just has to be real." Just a ride. But we always kill those good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok. But it doesn't matter because: It's just a ride. And we can change it anytime we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings and money. A choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love, instead, see all of us as one. Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money that we spend on weapons and defences each year and instead spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace." -- Bill Hicks He died at age 34 of pancreatic cancer, I think. Forrest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 the REALITY of it is: there are bad people who do bad things,and will do bad things to you if the occasion arises. *the best way to avoid these situations is to be aware of your surroundings,and the actions of others around you. *if circumstances evolve that avoidance is not an option,i beleive in self-defense. *self-defense should be pursued to the degree that the threat is no longer viable. *sometimes this may lead to taking the life of another. hopefully one day society may progress to a point that avoidance and self-defense are no longer neccesary-but we are a long way from that. that is my opinion of the REALITY of the days we are in now. avman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 ---------------- On 4/23/2004 8:09:03 AM fini wrote: What if we all prepared for love, happiness and peace? I can see people being afraid of that! ---------------- i AM prepared for love,happiness,and peace. and i am also prepared for those in our world who are exactly the opposite-i have seen them,and they are real. avman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomac Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 Fear comes not from what people tell you but from what is unknown. As long as there is the unknown, there will be fear. As long as there is fear, people will require weapons. Now, I never thought one had to be a deep thinker to understand that there are bad people in this world and that as the general population increases, so will the number of crimes perpetrated by the rising number of bad people. The crimes will occur with the aid of fists, feet, clubs, rocks, knives, guns, cars, trucks, chemicals, disease and other otherwise useful implements. Its not a crime to paint a muddled picture. It could be an injustice though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 ---------------- On 4/23/2004 11:41:26 AM boomac wrote: Fear comes not from what people tell you but from what is unknown. As long as there is the unknown, there will be fear. As long as there is fear, people will require weapons. Now, I never thought one had to be a deep thinker to understand that there are bad people in this world and that as the general population increases, so will the number of crimes perpetrated by the rising number of bad people. The crimes will occur with the aid of fists, feet, clubs, rocks, knives, guns, cars, trucks, chemicals, disease and other otherwise useful implements. Its not a crime to paint a muddled picture. It could be an injustice though. ---------------- my 'fear' only goes as far as KNOWING what some people WILL do if given the opportunity to harm others,and not being prepared for or able to avoid that harm.i am not often in 'fear'. avman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBB Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 I think it all depends on your point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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