RF-3IIs not meeting my needs for those occational high SPLs

[Pistol Pete]

I have tried seperate amplification, room treatments and turning down the treble some and nothing has really helped my RF-3IIs sound better at high volume levels.

In 2 channel mode my RX-V3300 has plenty of juice to drive even less sensitive speakers to pretty high volumes. I have tried setting them on small and large to no avail as well. Now 95% of the time I am 100% happy with them , but that last 5% are those once a month deals when I like to crank them up for a few songs.

When cranked they get harsh and somewhat distorted sounding I am not exactly sure what it is except that they don't sound good. My last speakers were some Adire Audio Kit281s which I had for years and at high volumes in this same room they sounded spectacular... loud yet clean and crisp as they sounded at 70dbs ...nice.

I am not sure what to do , I am considering selling the RF-3IIs then moving the RB-25s to the front and getting another pair for the back then I get another stereo only pair of speakers for the front.

Take a look at my room, its not like I need to fill an auditorium or something. :-) Perhaps I am just spoiled , I have been in this hobby for a number of years and have been thru many pairs of speakers from DIY ones to Paradigm, JBL , PSB , Mission and the list goes on.

[Pistol Pete]

[Pistol Pete]

[MrMcGoo]

Try Reference 7s up front. Your ears will go deaf before the RF-7s start to distort, provided you have good amplification.

Bill

[Colin]

THD is NOT a flat number through-put the power output curve. On solid-state amplifiers, it is high when power output is low and really skyrockets when output is high. Plus, solid-state THD is NOT the same as tube or musical instrument distortion. Therefore, the super-sensitivity of your big ole horns reveals the inadequacies of your amplifier when it is clipping at high volumes.

Your system profile doesnt say what you have, so try moving the mains out from the walls, toeing them towards your sweet spot and investigate better front-end equipment

[Beesley]

Have you tried using something other than yamaha as the reciever or pre/pro?

[damonrpayne]

What are you running for an amplifier? "easylistener" on this board was able to get plenty of performance out of his RF3IIs, I believe he was running 400 watt bridged NAD monoblocks. You shouldn't need to go that far: a good Rotel, Aragon, or B&K amp should be able to provide more than enough juice.

[Pistol Pete]

Colin, thanks for the reply. I certainly have already tried speaker positions of all sorts as well as a few room treatments.

I am running a reciever that I thought was adequate but maybe its not, I am using a Yamaha RX-V3300 and I have tried a pair of Parasound monoblocks as well. I'll admit though that neither are the quality of a current B&K or Parasound amp.

Can you guys give me a few suggestions for 2 channel amps that would sound good with the RF-3IIs at higher volumes?

[Jalen01]

If that's all your looking for?? Try a decent 120-200 watter from Rotel, B&K, Mcintosh, ATI, or Bryston etc etc...with Cheap Creek OBH- 12 or a Parasound 850 Preamp. You'll be amazed at the spl's you'll get then. Not to mention the extra BASS and Dynamics. I've thrown several Parties with mine (Mostly House Parties, One Block Party) Very Good Loud Sounds for the money!!!!

On the other hand if your looking for "Audiophile Type" sounds you may need to audition some......and look at better source player.

Good luck

[Pistol Pete]

I have a new amp on order , I hope it does the job otherwise I am selling my mains and building something new.

I really don't want to get rid of Klipsch for HT use so i'll keep my center and surrounds and get some RB-5s or something to use as mains and build a big pair of stereo only speakers.

Here is the amp I bought..

http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/productdetail.asp?sku=PARBHCA1500A

[Pistol Pete]

Here are the specs on the amp....

Continuous power output: Stereo, 205 Watts RMS x 2 (20 Hz - 20 kHz) @ 8 ohms, both channels driven; 315 Watts RMS x 2 (20 Hz - 20 kHz) @ 4 ohms, both channels driven; Mono, 630 Watts RMS (20 Hz - 20 kHz) @ 8 ohms

Current capacity: 60 A peak per channel

FR: 5 Hz -100 kHz, +0/-3 dB at 1 watt

THD: <0.03% at full power; <0.01% typical levels

S/N Ratio: >110 dB, input shorted, IHF A-weighted

IM Distortion: <0.03%

TIM: Unmeasureable

Slew rate: >130 V/u second

Dynamic headroom: >1.5 dB

Interchannel crosstalk: >80 dB at 1 kHz, >60 dB at 20 kHz

Input impedance: 33 kW

Input sensitivity: 1 V for 28.28 V; THX Reference Level; 1.2 V for full output

Damping Factor: >800 at 20 Hz

Dimensions: 19" wide, 5.25" high, and 16" deep (.875" high with feet)

Weight: 40 lbs.

Manufacturer's limited warranty: 10 years parts, 5 years labor.

[Deang]

I guess you either didn't see my PM, or you chose to ignore it. What a shame. At any rate, I doubt this new amp will supply the solution you are looking for, especially if you are going to use the preamp section of the receiver to drive it. There will certainly be some improvement because of the added headroom, but you'll still hear what you are trying to get rid of. Also, since the RB-5 uses the same tweeter and horn as what you are currently using -- moving to those as mains isn't going to solve anything either.

[easylistener]

I agree. You may need to get a preamp. They make a huge differnce.

How is it working out? How about a update.

[Pistol Pete]

Actually Dean PMed me and offered me a crossover upgrade as a solution.

The pre-amp section is not going to get replaced as I just spent quite abit on the Yamaha RX-V3300 last October ..anyhow I think its pretty sweet sounding.

The new Parasound HCA-1500A will be arriving from Audio Advisor next week so I won't have any results until after it gets here.

[J.4knee]

Sorry I just have to. Go Heritage young man go Heritage

[Colin]

Hope the amplifier makes the difference. At the ARK gathering (May 20040), DeanG first played an obnoxious Led Zepplin (?) recording, where Robert Plants voice drove the refined older ears from the room. It grated the ears, ringing like large bell sounding like hiss. Then Dean installed his larger crossovers in Jesses (Stream) RF7s. This made a huge difference in the smoothness of the mid-range, but also the treble. Cymbals sounded like metal, NOT hiss. The group that left, returned; the easy consensus was that the new larger crossovers made a significant difference. NOT as startling as a different amplifier or adding a sub-woofer perhaps, but a definite refinement. If the harshness or brightness of the FR7s are bothering you, this is certainly one solid improvement.

Since Jesse already has a sweet Cambridge Audio CD player, very impressive Cayin TA30 integrated tube amplifier in a small room, there are only a few things he can do to upgrade the quality of his 3D sonic holograph. After the brief audition I had of Deans crossovers in the RF7, his crossovers are certainly one of them.

[ssh]

I don't know that Colin was recommending the Cayin, but I was also impressed with it. It was a good pairing with the 7s, & is worth considering if you're looking for a cleaner sound. Of course, you will always enjoy the improvement of moving up the Klipsch ladder, too.

SSH

[Colin]

Since the room is average size, I think some room treatments are in order. Since the Yammie is NOT so popular with many Klipschers, that may need upgrading, to something like the Cayin. Since Deans crossover worked so well with Jesses RF7s, maybe the RFIIIs need something similar.

What does the EQ tell you about the high end?

[cjgeraci]

PistolPete, we are all here to help. Its frustrating to go through a number of steps/upgrades and still not get the sound you are looking for.

Colin: from his photos, looks like he has some foam room treatments in the rear of his setup.

Pete, where are your treatments placed? Do you have treatments directly across (and above) from your mains' angles of first reflections? Is foam your material of choice for room treatment? Just asking because there are other materials that are much more effective, with respect to the dreaded horn highs and reflections, other than foam, (i.e. fiberglass such as OC 701-05).

Also, I know you really like the Yammie 3300. But, I concur with others that your choice of pre-amp may be contributing to the problem. I am not sure if the Parasound alone will solve the problem. Please keep us updated.

I also agree with others' comments about Dean's x-overs. Will probably give those a spin myself for my RF-7s. I am not sure if it is worth it to upgrade your RF-3IIs with such.

Carl.

[Deang]

"Actually Dean PMed me and offered me a crossover upgrade as a solution."

Yikes, that sounds like I PM'd you just to see if I could make a buck -- so don't forget to say that I offered you free labor, as well as offering to reimburse you for the price of the parts and shipping if you didn't like what you heard.

Now, IT IS possible that the harshness was because you were sending the Yamaha into clipping, but based on your setup and room size -- I just found it hard to believe. Of course, the RF-3 is not as sensitive as the RF-7s, which I'm more familiar with -- so it's definitely possible the Parasound will cure your ills (very nice amp BTW).

I really appreciate the kind words Colin, more than you realize. It has been such a struggle convincing people, and I knew the trip to Arkansas was going to either make me or break me. If you want to know the truth, my credibility was on the line -- and even though I was confident in the outcome -- I was a nervous wreck (did it show).

I consider a network upgrade as being on near the same level as an equipment upgrade. That last hop to the drivers is critical, and no matter how good the amp and sources -- everything goes through Grand Central Station. The cleaner the network the better. Let me ask you -- do you believe the sound would have improved in the manner in which you heard if we would have changed amplifiers or preamps?

I'm certainly not discounting equipment upgrades, because they are important and do wonders. I just believe that it makes more sense to work the speaker end first since it costs less money -- and if the desired result can be had without spending near a $1000 on a preamp or amp -- then I think this is a good thing.