D-MAN Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 Hey, I thought you said there was no science in it? You mean I typed all that for nothing?! Minn_Male42 is indeed correct, we are talking EXTREMELY small amounts of difference electrically. Very, very small changes in available current. Basically wires have very little resistance anyway, but it is there and some are better or worse than others... The effect of any AC cabling will be determined by the respective power supply's sensitivity to the quality of the input AC supply. As the supply "calls" for current, the cable just exhibits slightly less resistance to the flow. It is very, very small difference, but enough that the supply effectively sees slightly more of available current than with the stock cheap cable. It will have an effect. It has to. But again: TINY. However, the quality of the output is dependent on alot of other things. So the effect of a "better" AC cable may or may not be noticable on systems that aren't the same as mine, as I can only speak of my own experience. I am running some quality gear and the AC really shows as to its quality. At night, it even gets better as the power grid "clears up" as people go to bed. I'm not stupid nor made out of money, but I tried it, was convinced that it was better than stock and eventually replaced most of my AC cables when I could on what I consider the "good" audio gear of an estimated quality that could use the tweak to best effect. I would not do it on the video gear, etc. in that even I have my limits... DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 ---------------- On 5/19/2004 6:52:53 PM D-MAN wrote: The effect of any AC cabling will be determined by the respective power supply's sensitivity to the quality of the input AC supply. As the supply "calls" for current, the cable just exhibits slightly less resistance to the flow. It is very, very small difference, but enough that the supply effectively sees slightly more of available current than with the stock cheap cable. It will have an effect. It has to. But again: TINY. However, the quality of the output is dependent on alot of other things. So the effect of a "better" AC cable may or may not be noticable on systems that aren't the same as mine, as I can only speak of my own experience. I am running some quality gear and the AC really shows as to its quality. At night, it even gets better as the power grid "clears up" as people go to bed. DM ---------------- it is interesting..... all of the components that are in our audio/video systems take the 115 volts AC current from the wall and convert it into DC so it can be used within the component..... usually anywhere from 5 volts to 36 volts depending upon the design and the component.... higher quality components usually have much larger transformers to do this job (as well as huge capacitors)..... a larger transformer can provide a more even output if the voltage and/or current fluctuates..... some amplifier manufacturers have gone as far as to recommend that surge protectors not be used because they may limit current and the large transformer acts like its own built-in surge protector...... so in essence...these "higher quality" components should exhibit less improvement if any to power variations... the manufacturers design them that way..... and no offense DM.... but this comment usually comes up in these discussions......"well, if you can't hear the differences then it is because you have inferior equipment compared to mine"..... again we turn to science..... for an experiment to be valid it must be able to be duplicated in a different location and/or setting..... repeatablilty.... whether my mere system is "quality" enough for your power cables is debatable, but there are many other people with six digit systems that have double blind tested these cables and have proven no difference..... unless you actually do the double blind testing with your cables in your system, you cannot escape the psychological effects of knowing that the expensive cable is now plugged into your amp....so it MUST sound better....... there have been extensive scientific tests done in the field of pyschology that proves that phenomenon.... there have been NO scientific tests done that prove power cables make any difference! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 I will be as bold as to say BS. I agree with Justin, having good commerical/industrial power cords is a good thing, and something I might do. Those things are NOT marked up 90% (or more...) I bet if you went to a lab or facility that was using MEGA-BUCK, precision equiptment, they would be using what Justin described, and not some fancy thing. Remember, these pieces of lab equiptment work within tolerances that make your audio gear look like something from Frankenstein's lab after a lightning strike. BTW, I am undecided on line conditioners and that stuff, but power cables start to get a little TOO funky. BEST FOR LAST: OK, you bought a new $100 power cable (or the $1200 one in my Audio Advisor that came today), and plug it in. What is behind that plug? Hmmm, well, cheap Romex for 100 feet to your circuit breaker, which is connected to the city's lines by corroded wire that is decades old. How is a power cord going to fix that? Even the audio cable companies say their wires don't 'fix' stuff, just preserve whats there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 Any component that can have it's performance impacted by a freaking power cord should be thrown into the trash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 ---------------- On 5/20/2004 12:01:26 AM DeanG wrote: Any component that can have it's performance impacted by a freaking power cord should be thrown into the trash. ---------------- LOL that makes alot of sense. I guess if you spend alot on a component it better have a freakin good power cord to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 ---------------- On 5/20/2004 12:23:56 AM wheelman wrote: ---------------- On 5/20/2004 12:01:26 AM DeanG wrote: Any component that can have it's performance impacted by a freaking power cord should be thrown into the trash. ---------------- LOL that makes alot of sense. I guess if you spend alot on a component it better have a freakin good power cord to begin with. ---------------- The point being, if its getting power, the power supply should be 90-150 volts 40-70 Hz, and not give a *** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 Kenratboy: couldn't agree more with what you say. Like I said, even if the super duper power cord is plugged into a " hospital grade " outlet, the wire in the wall is still everyday 14/2 solid core wire, that in turn goes through non-audiophile approved circuit breakers ( branch and main, no less! ) and is also connected at the meter !. From there it is connected to the substation or pole mount transformer. Just phone up your local utility company and convince them that they have to rewire the service to your house with kimber or monster cable because you think that it is so much better. To top it all off, you must have to have silver wire in the transformer, because it makes the sound " brighter ". Why don't these manufactuers make specialty circuit breakers and transformers to feed these esoteric audio systems?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TauRus Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 Sounds like a business opportunity, Michael. Hmm, should we make a start up and call it BS Audio? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 Ha haha! There is a PS audio, but a b.s. audio... hmm. Sounds like a good business proposal to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 I am screwed because my wiring isn't to good in my home. When the air conditioner runs everthing just sort of pauses for a second every now and then. Light dims ext. When the outdoor light comes on I hear a slight static sound for a second and then it's gone. I really need to upgrade my electrical wiring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 ---------------- On 5/18/2004 5:44:23 PM john4618 wrote: Whats the consensus here on upgrading power cords for processors and amps ??? ---------------- are you sort of getting the "consensus" from what most of us think???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john4618 Posted May 20, 2004 Author Share Posted May 20, 2004 ---------------- are you sort of getting the "consensus" from what most of us think???? ---------------- Yes, if you have a very, very, very thin wire power cable then MAYBE a higher quality power cable could improve your sound -- needless to say, I will stay with what I now have -- thanks everyone for your comments! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 Well, I knew that it would be controversial... I tried not to resort to the "quality of gear" thing as that can be a cop-out in some cases, but it must be considered. Agreed, it is only one of a set of variables. How do I explain this: replace stock cable with bigger one, and without any adjustments, get more volume, same configuration? More available current. Period. No arguing. It's a fact. Say what you want but in order for humans to detect a change in volume requires + or - 3 db, if I remember correctly. Now you do the math. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 ---------------- On 5/20/2004 1:20:16 PM D-MAN wrote: How do I explain this: replace stock cable with bigger one, and without any adjustments, get more volume, same configuration? More available current. Period. No arguing. It's a fact. Say what you want but in order for humans to detect a change in volume requires + or - 3 db, if I remember correctly. Now you do the math. DM ---------------- i agree 100% with those statements!!!! but the 12 gauge 3 conductor stranded cable that you can buy in bulk (and make your own cables) will pass the same amount of current as the high buck 12 gauge 3 conductor power cable that we are discussing in this thread.... "More available current." says it all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Trey Cannon Posted May 20, 2004 Klipsch Employees Share Posted May 20, 2004 What do you do about the 14/3 wire in the wall that you cant see? Will hooking up a "cool guy" power cable make the wire in the wall work better? As long as the cable you use is a good one, all will be fine. Is one cable better than the other, Maybe. Just remember, (15 amp breaker) (120 Volts) -(X feet of romax in the wall) is all you can get. But if you really want to make it sound better, put your cheep power cord on stilts to keep it off the floor...Now that makes a big difference.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 Yes, that is a problem that you can't easily address, but at least from the outlet on out you DO have some choices. I have found that some of those choices do matter. I'm not going to get into the thousands of dollar upgrades that the electrical system would incur, but heck, for a hundred, I'll play around with a few tweaks. Believe me, if I thought any were foundless, I'd be the first to complain here even at the risk of admitting gullability. I guess we are really talking about what degree we are willing to part with our money to get at the best sound that we can from our systems. We all have different limits and all of that is a personal decision which has alot of different considerations involved. However, I would like to say that this thread has held together pretty well without resorting to actual name calling... That's an improvement! DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TauRus Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 Where facts and logic stop, faith begins ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthurs Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 yeah, good job on not reverting to petty name calling............... you bastards..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popbumper Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 Nothing better than the "complete and utter" ramblings of science when people want to argue specs.... As an electronics engineer, I often get to sit in a laboratory and characterize prototype device performance before it gets released to market. The data I collect is often collated, "mathematized", looked at across six-sigma deviations, across a specific temperature ranges, and is compared in lot-to-lot variations. Once this data is collected in what is considered "adequate sample lots", the data is perused by a bunch of other engineers who sit down and fit it to a data sheet, whose specified ranges are based on what is expected, versus what is "witnessed", versus what it gathered on automated testers, versus what is gathered in "bench results"...all with a variation that is based on statistical spread. OK, what is my point? In mathematics, engineering, science, there is always a VARIABILITY which you cannot account for. For ANY device I measure in a lab environment, there is variability introduced by the device itself, by the accuracy of the measuing equipment, by the accuracy of the environmental controls, by the accuracy of the line voltage, by the room temperature, by the solder on the board, by the components on the test board, ad infinitum. Really, what is my point? EVERYTHING is relative. NO two/three/five/seven speakers driven by any number of amps in forty-five different settings in seventeen listening positions in rooms of varying temperature listened to with EARS of 437 different people are going to sound the same. Even better? NO IDENTICAL set of components/speakers in the SAME room are going to perform EXACTLY the same, reagrdless of how careful you are to meet all the conditions! To close - why do people argue over things like power cords? Because they CAN. What it ALL finally comes down to is - are YOU happy? Is YOUR system adequate? Do YOU think that a $100 power cord will improve your system? If you DO, it just might! This is not intended to incite anything, I am just trying to point out that everything is relative, when it all comes down to it. While LAWS and theorems of science and math certainly exist, there is NO way to account for variability - and perhaps the MOST variable"link" in the chain are people themselves. Popbumper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 ---------------- On 5/20/2004 12:53:05 AM wheelman wrote: I am screwed because my wiring isn't to good in my home. When the air conditioner runs everthing just sort of pauses for a second every now and then. Light dims ext. When the outdoor light comes on I hear a slight static sound for a second and then it's gone. I really need to upgrade my electrical wiring. ---------------- Wheelman - you MIGHT benefit from one of the Monster power centers ($200 minimum, or $400 for a bigger one that sits on the component rack). They are supposed to eliminate or reduce all those issues. However, I do not know if it will actually work. Anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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