dodger Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 ---------------- On 7/8/2004 9:18:13 AM Anarchist wrote: ROTFL. One of my better choices of grammatical structure. Of course, velcro might be the only thing illegal in Miami. What changes. I had a conversation with a guy where he actually said, "this here is 100% legal and this is what everybody gets" pointing to something else. Of course, he said it with a heavy Cuban accent. Miami is the new Wild West. We don't have brothels down here (at least not that I know about) but all you need to do is pick up a newspaper and the adverts for 'escorts' do not even feign innocence. Back on topic. I might need to buy the velcro here; hell, I don't even know if Kentucky has heard of Velcro. They just discovered DVD and that is only because of Blockbuster and Walmart. ---------------- Hi: Try the fabric section of the Wal-Mart or if you have a JoAnn Fabric. If you can't find it, PM me dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 ---------------- On 7/8/2004 7:59:43 AM dodger wrote: The issue of the plastic pins holding the grilles has been side-stepped in your reply. Velcro would be an easy, cost efficient, consumer related solution. ---------------- FYI - the grills on the RS-7s are held on by Velcro. One issue that I ran into when I first got mine was when I removed the grill for the first time, the Velcro completely pulled off the speaker. I had to get out the trusty old hot-glue gun and re-glue the velcro dots back down. One fix that I recall seeing with regards to the broken pin is to drill them out and replace them with metal pins. I also would not mind replacing the plastic feet with metal ones. Also, the RF-7s does have MDF fronts with a plastic horn. The newer RF-x5 series are the ones with the plastic fronts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Adams Posted July 9, 2004 Share Posted July 9, 2004 Thinking out loud.... I wonder if Klipsch plans to use this same marketing logic with their Premier line? I mean, will their one Premier model spawn other models just as the Reference series did? And what happens after the Premier line? Maybe we'll see a Premier Heritage line-up?? Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted July 10, 2004 Share Posted July 10, 2004 ...maybe they'll do like the banks with plastic: premier silver, then in a few years, premier gold. then premier diamond, and, well, you get the picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted July 10, 2004 Share Posted July 10, 2004 cc1091, I agree,the true REFERENCE line should have only one tower,one bookshelf,one center,one set of sourround speakers and ONE subwoofer. As there can be only ONE reference from any one company. With the introduction of the cheapie lesser "reference" towers(anything not RF7)and small center channel speakers Klipsch made the Reference lineup ...K Mart type "reference". I say WHO's reference are they,a deaf man's refrence? take a look at Dynaudio reference speakers,only the best,Wilson's reference(yes I know they are priced so high a common man will puke)is only the X1's and now X2's. A reference product should carry the BEST elements and the best know how the company has gained over the years.Looks like only Paul Klipsch had a vision and created long ago the real Reference line in the Heritage line. I cannot wait for B0$e's ...reference cubes. You want a true REFERENCE Klipsch speaker,try to best the K-Horn in all aspects of musical reproduction and realism and then I will bow down and...buy them if size is not that of a fridge. 10K no problem,there are people with money who will pay.And the image of Klipsch will go up too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted July 10, 2004 Share Posted July 10, 2004 ---------------- On 7/10/2004 9:35:10 PM TheEAR wrote: I cannot wait for B0$e's ...reference cubes. ---------------- Well, as Bose goes, the smaller they are, the better that are, so the ReferenceMass system would have 2, 1" drivers in the cubes, and 2, 5.25" 'subwoofers' - it would change the world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 ---------------- On 7/11/2004 10:07:46 AM mdeneen wrote: If memory serves, the Bose company had a big product line called "Lifestyle" something or other in which the highly successful emphasis was, I suppose, "there is no need to clutter up your designer apartment with big, ugly, bulky speakers, when these will do the same thing." ---------------- That is correct. Bose does have a series of product they call "Lifestyle" systems. The Lifestyle 35 is currently thier top of the line (they discountinued the Lifestyle 50). The thing costs nearly $2,800. However, this is definitly a case of form over function. Yeah, it looks sleek and stylish and can certainly appeal to those "yuppie" types that done't like the big, boxey, speakers such as even the RF-7s that I have. They may sound "good enough" for most people, but in my opinion, they sure as hell don't sound $2,800 good. Also, those systems typically do not have anywhere near the features that a good pre/pro would have. For example, they have no bass management whatsoever. Also, upgradability is pretty much a dead-end on those things. I got to hear the RSX satellites and I'll fully admit that I was quite impressed. A complete 5.1 set (with RW-10 sub), paired with a decent reciever and DVD player, is still cheaper than most of the Bose Lifestyle systems (you'll have to get the highest end ones to come even close to the quality of the RSX set). However, they RSX is a good order of magnitude better in sound reproduction than the Bose, and the smaller ones (such as the new RSX-3s) are really not much larger than those Bose dual-cube speakers. Personally, I am all for Klipsch putting out more models to appeal to the differing budgets/space needs. As long as they continue to at least offer the speakers the truly made Klipsch what they are, the Heritage. Unfortunatly, the Heritage is becoming such a niche market that nobody really wants to stock them or display them. I am certainly interested in eventually getting a pair of K-horns myself. I would really love to get a brand-new pair, if not at least it would be an indication to Klipsch that people are still buying these things. But, since there are no Heritage dealers nearby, and last I checked, there are none in the entire state of Virginia, I may ended up doing what most people on here have done - getting a used pair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 Hello: EDIT: Sknopa (sp?) On a quality REFERENCE Speaker, the Consumer shouldn't have to worry about fixing a problem, IMHO Years ago, there were TTs made in America by BIC. Low price tag, high quality. Average consumer thought lower priced, lower quality. They bit the dust. As Klipsch attempts to appeal to a larger group of Consumers, there have been changes. Some good, some very poor. As Noted above, Reference (other than Heritage - where is the Cornwall?) SHOULD stand for the BEST a company makes. What do we have with Klipsch? A lot of choices - too many. Models change, materials change. That's life. Some of these changes at this point, seem to be for change sake. With that thought, most of the Pre-amp, Amp, Tuner change so what you bought last year is now available with different model numbers and the features you paid for included at a lower price. Efficient Marketing means gaining new customers while retaining the present customer base. It also includes word of mouth advertising. I go back to the point of having to order Heritage (what happened to the Cornwall or Cornwall IIs?) unheard. You don't even see a Heresey on a demo floor. New generations lose. I had Chorus IIs, sold them. I thought of RF7s noted the placement to get good sound - to me. Did not buy. Saw RB-25s thought what happened? Plastic, Vinyl? Is that the best as called Reference? A company can stay stable, add a couple of speakers at a time and buck the trend of changing so often. For all of the R&D - many still see the K-Horns as the ultimate. Others are content with other Heritage such as we'll say the Cornwall IIs. But when there are new lines or "iproved" lines added so often, maybe it's my age, but I still like wood, grille cloth and stability. Owners of newer models, I am not criticizing your speakers. I am only giving voice to my thoughts. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleve Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 ---------------- On 7/2/2004 10:52:41 AM Gerald Willis wrote: I'm not sure which particular models you mean, but I'll guess it's that you're talking about speakers like the Reference Satellites. I'm new to the Forum and mostly an Architectural and Pro speaker person here, but I’m part of the Reference group for product development, so I’d like to know more about what you mean. Is it the price levels that bother you or the performance? We’re not happy going into a category unless we feel that we can bring something to the table in better performance than what we’re going up against. On the Heritage side, I wouldn’t worry about that going away. Do you feel that Reference and Synergy are that close? ---------------- There's a pretty significant performance increase between the KSW-12 and my sub, the RW-12. I don't get confused. Is it truly 'Reference'? I guess that depends on one's definition of the word. All of Klipsch's reference line seems, to me at least, to be designed on the 'same page'- it's clear the products have the same lineage - just different price brackets for different budgets/priorities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinipig523 Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 i think that the problem everyone has with the klipsch reference is the fact that the reference has been overused and no longer means "reference" in the true meaning of the word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biomedtech Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 I purchased my Synergy speakers for two reasons: great sound at a great price. To my ears, they were the best sounding bookshelf speakers I had heard in 20 years. Recently, my home was vandalized, and of all the items taken, my Klipsch speakers are the most missed. I plan on replacing them with a something from the Referance series. In my experience, Mr. Phillips' statement concerning the Synergy line is right on target. ---------------- On 7/2/2004 3:08:17 PM Stephen Phillips wrote: Our Synergy line is designed for customers who desire excellent performance at a value price. Our Reference products make up our premium line, designed and engineered with the most expensive materials for consumers that demand the utmost performance, and are willing to pay a slight premium to achieve that additional performance. Klipsch offers a product line for most, if not all bugets. ---------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 TheEar said: "A reference product should carry the BEST elements and the best know how the company has gained over the years.Looks like only Paul Klipsch had a vision and created long ago the real Reference line in the Heritage line." **** insert warm and mellow bell tone here **** It's hard to reinvent the wheel, isn't it? By my definition of "Reference", that means/implies "flagship". When I think Flagship Klipsch, I think Heritage. Not just for sound, but build quality too. While it is perfectly understood why Klipsch offers the various lines and price points (as a response to the changing audio market, to sell more units, and stay in business), the term "reference" is as overused in audio as "new and improved" is on household products. Hell, even one of my local audio dealers uses "Reference" in it's name (and they don't carry the Klipsch) Ask any old Klipsch dealer that spent years selling the Heritage about the Reference. I have. Several of them. Their comments are not nearly as kind as mine. It's interesting, because one of these local dealers still gets 75-80% of the most recently published new prices for Heritage trade ins they resell. People still come in asking for them. When I told one dealer of my Klipsch exploits, he commented: "Well, so much for us selling you speakers.....but I can't say that I blame you". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 ---------------- On 7/12/2004 6:22:09 AM Audible Nectar wrote: TheEar said: "A reference product should carry the BEST elements and the best know how the company has gained over the years.Looks like only Paul Klipsch had a vision and created long ago the real Reference line in the Heritage line." **** insert warm and mellow bell tone here **** It's hard to reinvent the wheel, isn't it? By my definition of "Reference", that means/implies "flagship". When I think Flagship Klipsch, I think Heritage. Not just for sound, but build quality too. While it is perfectly understood why Klipsch offers the various lines and price points (as a response to the changing audio market, to sell more units, and stay in business), the term "reference" is as overused in audio as "new and improved" is on household products. Hell, even one of my local audio dealers uses "Reference" in it's name (and they don't carry the Klipsch) Ask any old Klipsch dealer that spent years selling the Heritage about the Reference. I have. Several of them. Their comments are not nearly as kind as mine. It's interesting, because one of these local dealers still gets 75-80% of the most recently published new prices for Heritage trade ins they resell. People still come in asking for them. When I told one dealer of my Klipsch exploits, he commented: "Well, so much for us selling you speakers.....but I can't say that I blame you". ---------------- Sknopa(sp) I don't know if you'll notice my edit, but a Reference Speaker should nt even need the need for a Consumer fix. In this post, I agree with Audible Nectar. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 You can put the word "reference" on any thing. Labeling something doesn't make it true. If there was such a thing as truth in advertising, what manufacturer would want to label their product (truthfully) "crap"? How much would they sell then?! DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 ---------------- On 7/12/2004 2:57:11 PM D-MAN wrote: If there was such a thing as truth in advertising, what manufacturer would want to label their product (truthfully) "crap"? ---------------- I hope you are not implying that the Klipsch Reference series is crap. I would have to vehemently disagree with that. But then again, there seems to be plenty of folks on here that must think that if it is not Heritage, than it must not be Klipsch. I wonder how long Klipsch as a company would've lasted if they continued to just sell Heritage and refused to try to enter some of the newer markets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 No, not everything is "crap". I can't say anything about the Klipsch reference line, never heard them. But generally, if it says "reference" it ain't. The "reference" label is just a scam. But I've got a pair of KEF model 4's in rosewood that say "reference" on them (who came first, the chicken or the egg?). While they are not truly "crap" they are not what I'd call reference quality. They are certainly closer to the "crap" end than the "reference" end... What I am "referencing" is the HUBRIS required to put the "reference" label on a product, when everybody involved knows better (or at least should know better). DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 ---------------- On 7/12/2004 4:22:38 PM skonopa wrote: ---------------- On 7/12/2004 2:57:11 PM D-MAN wrote: If there was such a thing as truth in advertising, what manufacturer would want to label their product (truthfully) "crap"? ---------------- I hope you are not implying that the Klipsch Reference series is crap. I would have to vehemently disagree with that. But then again, there seems to be plenty of folks on here that must think that if it is not Heritage, than it must not be Klipsch. I wonder how long Klipsch as a company would've lasted if they continued to just sell Heritage and refused to try to enter some of the newer markets. ---------------- Hello: Personally, I like the Cornwall II. I have had Chorus IIs, they have been alright, but. A good number of straight two (2) channel people, rather than having multi channel are a little older, set in our ways - Three (3) way speakers left and right. We also (well I will speak for myself) are not fans of changing models - be it speakers, receivers, Pre-Amps, Amps as often as has been done since the late 1980s. Vinyl went out for CDs. Now Turntables are back. Luckily I kept my Albums and bought CDs. Now we have SACDs, DVDs to replace out VHS which for some replaced Beta. We have only so much money and so much space - I do. It's like a teddy bear which gets replaced with a new toy then a new toy......... Prices for equipment, interconnects, speaker cables, power cords, line conditioners, surge protectors, replacing favorite albums, CDs, Cassettes, dealing with chips to prevent a duplication, etc.. Then we have cable TV or Dish/Direct, pay per view - something has to give. Unfortunately this thread notes the Speaker line. Other equipment, tweaks are in the mix but only the Speaker as Reference is noted. I grew up with the Heritage Line. There's a mix of nostalgia and a true question of what can Klipsch call Reference. A comparison by many to the materials and quality of the Heritage Line is bound to come into play. Anything but solid quality wood and plastic only in the pie shaped logos or its use in the horns of the Heritage II lines is going to be questioned. Change seems to be on some points for change sake. Or for me, too often, too throw away or too expensive. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troostj Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 "How about a retrofit kit with 'new' Reference-style magnetic grills for those of us who like to show off our cones?" Thats a great idea! You know, today I checked my speakers.. and one of my pins broke! Im soo mad btw, I had never really heard music without the grills, and I did today.. and to me, it made a world of difference! Is it me.. or do you guys also hear a big difference with the grill on and off? (I cant keep it off all the time.. I'm scared my cat will get curious ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 troost----If your cat was big enough it would kill you and eat you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinipig523 Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 reference for klipsch should mean one thing: the BEST speaker they can make with no holds-barred parts, touches, design... PERIOD. to me, the reference line is not this - there is too many! there should only be ONE as theEAR mentioned earlier. look at Paradigm, the Reference Signatures are all one speaker (one of each kind)... look at martin logan, their reference is the statement e2 - nothing else! i agree about the heritage being possibly klipsch's reference... but if klipsch feels that they should label their top speakers "reference" (or atleast what they feel is their CURRENT top speaker), then they should atleast make it just one kind - with EVERYTHING! come on! plastic horns?! plastic pegs?! plastic feet?!!? what is this? klipsch, are you sure this is reference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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