The right subwoofer

[Billiardicus]

I'm trying to decide between the RSW-15, RSW-12, and RW-12 subwoofers. I'll probably only use the sub for DVD's (need a rumble sometimes) but thus far I tend to think subs subtract from music. Maybe I've never heard one calibrated properly, but I've been to many HIFI shops. I always end up asking them to turn the sub down/off when listening to music.

I'm thinking the RSW-15 is overkill for me. So it's probably the RSW-12 or the RW-12. RSW-12 costs a lot more. One difference is that it has front firing passive radiator in addition to the rear firing sub.

Any opinons on these subwoofers?

[Billiardicus]

Sorry...guess I should include my system details:

Front: RF-7s

Center: Buying RC-7

Rear: RF-3s

Receiver: Onkyo TS-DX898

Thanks

[ygmn]

RSW 15...it supposedly is designed to go with the 7 series....

why skimp on Sub....if it is too much....just lower volume hehehehe

[Olorin]

Agreed. I've never wished I had less sub, though sometimes I wish I had more.

[cjgeraci]

We really need to know just how big your room is. I guess even without that knowledge we could provide some abstract recommendations.

Actually, a quality sub does not necessarily detract from music, but helps fills in the necessary spots from 80 hz and below. So long as you have a quality sub that blends well with your main speakers.

Since you are running your Reference sevens with a receiver, I would recommend the best sub you can afford at this point, and I would not be concerned about overkill. I have auditioned all three subs you mentioned, and I would go with the RSW-15. I am personally a SVS man, but the RSW-15 would do your setup justice. A truly nice, very musical sub.

Better to do it the correct way right out of the gate. Of course, if you contemplate going with separates down the road (and a nice amp for your RF-7s), the bass response of your RF-7s could greatly improve. If that is realistically in your future, you could contemplate going with a RSW-12.

Carl.

[Guest Anonymous]

i personally do not own one of these although i say my next one will be one of these two that i would highley recomend due to the fact i don't think i have ever heard anything negative about them.... one would be an svs and the other the sunfire signature jr..... pricey but amazing on both

[Billiardicus]

Thanks for the replies. Sorry I left out my room info.

14ft W x 15ft L x 11ft H

As for separates...I'm going with the receiver for now because this is honestly my first sound system. I trying to buy stuff only once (hence the speakers), but I still have a lot to learn. I figured I'd get a used receiver since they lose their value quickly. I'll learn with this receiver, and then decide if I need separates later (receiver is still being shipped to me). Separates are a huge investment, so I really want to know what I'm doing before I go there.

A few more questions:

1. Do I need a Klipsch subwoofer? I've heard that you should stick to the same brand for good matching, but is the sub an exception? If so, is there a better sub for the money than Klipsch?

2. I've heard that the RSW-15 drops off below 30hrz. Is this true? The RF-7's are supposed to go to 32 hrz. This doesn't make sense.

The reason why I'm considering the rsw-12 in place of the rsw 15 is because:

1. My room is small

2. I really don't like a lot of low frequency bass. I hate having things rattle and shake. It's okay for an explosion in a movie or something, but I hate it during music.

[ncsubum]

small room? 14x15x11 is pretty large 2310 ft^3. My room is 11x20x8 which is only 1760 ft^3. Since I bought my NAD C372 my rf-7's really shine. The low end is exceptional and I no longer desire a subwoofer. I have never had my equip. in a room with that much volume (your room is almost 25% larger) but I would recomend going to a local shop that has a good line of power amps w/spec's something like this:

Class A (a must...class A amps are always driving the speaker, where as other A/B and C class amps only have control a fraction of the time)

High current (check out the chart at http://www.nadelectronics.com/power/index.htm to see how high current amps stack up against standard amps)

100x2 min. (My 372 is 150x2 and on some good jazz tracks and drum solo's i've had it what i like to call "walk half a mile down the street and can still hear it" loud and it is so perfectly clean and clear and whoa, i better slow down or i'm gonna get excited...point being more power the better)

Anyway...i went from a 110x2 @.015THD yamaha to my nad c372 and the different is awsome. the low end is so full but not overbearing...not boomy...just seemless...first track i played when i got it was dave weckl (spell?) master plan...the drum solo about 5 min. into it @~123db (so my spl meter said) almost made me cry...each drum strike was individual, nothing blended together, i could hear and feel each time he struck a drum the quick dynamic peak and the smooth roll off

if you can find a NAD C272...give it a shot its the same amp as mine but w/out the integrated preamp...i use the preouts from my yamaha into my NAD, so you could do the same from your onkyo. take advantage of most places 7 or 14 day return period and see if you like it...its worth a shot before you decide to buy a sub. They wont give you a hard time about returning it, just say it wasn't what you expected and they'll take it back.

Sorry to get off subject, but i honestly believe that the 7's have 100x more potential than most people know about. At high levels it will blow you away and put a big smile on your face...and at low levels the low end is still full and smooth.

Good luck

[cjgeraci]

----------------

On 8/1/2004 10:09:48 AM Billiardicus wrote:

Thanks for the replies. Sorry I left out my room info.

14ft W x 15ft L x 11ft H

As for separates...I'm going with the receiver for now because this is honestly my first sound system. I trying to buy stuff only once (hence the speakers), but I still have a lot to learn. I figured I'd get a used receiver since they lose their value quickly. I'll learn with this receiver, and then decide if I need separates later (receiver is still being shipped to me). Separates are a huge investment, so I really want to know what I'm doing before I go there.

A few more questions:

1. Do I need a Klipsch subwoofer? I've heard that you should stick to the same brand for good matching, but is the sub an exception? If so, is there a better sub for the money than Klipsch?

2. I've heard that the RSW-15 drops off below 30hrz. Is this true? The RF-7's are supposed to go to 32 hrz. This doesn't make sense.

The reason why I'm considering the rsw-12 in place of the rsw 15 is because:

1. My room is small

2. I really don't like a lot of low frequency bass. I hate having things rattle and shake. It's okay for an explosion in a movie or something, but I hate it during music.

----------------

Your reasoning for starting out with the purchase of a used receiver is sound (no pun intended). I just wanted to point out to you that unlike some other speakers, the RF-7s are extremely revealing speakers that really crave separates to get the most out of them. Therefore, if hook up your receiver and the RF-7s do not sound as good as you expected, you will know why. If your RF-7s sound good to you, stop. You just saved a ton of money.

1. You do not necessarily need a Klipsch sub. This is somewhat of a controversial subject so I will quickly say my peace and step aside. Subs are easier to match/substitute than other speakers in your setup. That being said, I have found from personal experience that both SVS and HSU subs blend in seamlessly with Klipsch speakers. Your best bet is to do a search for either of these two manufacturers in the subwoofer section here. The subject has been discussed alot. In my opinion, SVS and HSU are two sub manufacturers that offer better bang for the buck as opposed to Klipsch. Both SVS and HSU are direct-buy retailers; you purchase the subs online directly from the manufacturer. If you want more details on models and prices, go to www.svsubwoofers.com or www.hsuresearch.com. That being said, Klipsch makes some great subwoofers, and you would not go wrong with either a RSW-12 or a RSW-15.

2. The drop-off below 30hz is probably one of the only shortcomings of the RSW-15. It is quite the musical sub, but based on my limited experience (and postings from owners), the sub does dramatically drop off below 30hz. However, realize that most music does not have bass that goes below 30hz so most of the time the ability to go below 30hz will not be an issue (with respect to music).

The RF-7s, as stated, are supposed to go down to 32hz. However, you are not likely to get that type of solid, bass feel down to 32hz by running that receiver. Plus, with running that type of amplification, you may be better off setting your RF-7s to "small" to reduce distortion of the larger drivers, and let your sub supplement below 80hz. If you are concerned about the sub's ability to go below 30hz (primarily for movies' sake), there are subs from other manufacturers that can perform strongly down to 18hz (i.e. SVS/HSU).

I would advise asking RSW-15 owners if they have had shortcomings with respect to the sub's ability to handle passages from certain movies containing low bass passages.

Carl.

[IndyKlipschFan]

I wonder where you SVS guys think even on the Klipsch site you can get away with bad specs... Just tell the truth is all I ask. SVS makes a good sub, we all know it too. But your constant mis quotes of specs..("Many say I have never heard a Klipsch sub..blah blah blah...they make great speakers but have no idea what they are doing sub wise..blah blah blah) is simply untrue.

Go back and look again. The RSW 15 specs follow:

FREQUENCY RESPONSE:

19-120Hz ±3dB

MAX ACOUSTIC OUTPUT:

121dB @ 30Hz 1/8 space, 1 meter

ENCLOSURE TYPE:

Bass reflex via passive radiator

AMPLIFIER:

BASH® digital hybrid

AMPLIFIER POWER:

FTC Rated Power: 650 watts continuous, 30-110Hz @ <1% THD / Dynamic Power*: 2400 watts @ <1% THD / *Dynamic power indicates the actual power this amplifier will deliver to the woofer under normal operation.

You will be very, very, happy with this sub. Will probably never over drive it, and THATS the bottom line.

Go to www.klipsch.com and read for yourself. look at product catagories, reference series, subs,... It is all there.

Your room is not HUGE, but you also can't turn it up and expect it to be clean if you do not have it too. The 11 ft ceilings will help. No doubt why you chose the high end klipsch speakers in the first place!

As for turning up the bass in the Hi Fi Store subs, I agree. This is usually done to cover up the inferior speakers matched with it too. Even more critical in music too, you want to add fullness and richness to the bottom end, not sound like a 16- 18 yr olds thumping and rattling pimpmobile rap car. hahahaha

[garymd]

Roger,

Did you get my email the other day?

[Billiardicus]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I got to listen to the RSW15, RSW10, and RW12 yesterday (sadly no RSW12) My opinions thus far:

I don't like the RW12. Very boomy, that's about it. The RSW10 amazed me; it sounds a lot bigger than it is. I'm not sure it's going to be enough though.

As for music...The RF-7's really didn't seem to benefit much with a sub. They're pretty darn capable on their own. The sub really made a difference in movies though.

I'll take the advice and read up on the SVS and HSU subs as well.

[CECAA850]

Good luck sub hunting. Be sure that no matter what sub you ultimately decide on, that you spend some quality time calibrating the sub with an SPL meter and calibration disc. It makes all the difference in the world to the sound that you ultimately hear. Carl

[cjgeraci]

----------------

On 8/2/2004 2:04:36 PM IndyKlipschFan wrote:

I wonder where you SVS guys think even on the Klipsch site you can get away with bad specs... Just tell the truth is all I ask. SVS makes a good sub, we all know it too. But your constant mis quotes of specs..("Many say I have never heard a Klipsch sub..blah blah blah...they make great speakers but have no idea what they are doing sub wise..blah blah blah) is simply untrue.

Go back and look again. The RSW 15 specs follow:

FREQUENCY RESPONSE:

19-120Hz

* * *

You will be very, very, happy with this sub. Will probably never over drive it, and THATS the bottom line.

----------------

You still have not heard a SVS sub yet? I have had a RSW-15 in my home, but I cannot honestly tell you how many "SVS guys" have actually listened to Klipsch subs. Maybe someday we will get your wish fulfilled (Klipsch v. SVS).

In my response, I never referenced the claimed frequency response of the RSW-15. However, nice to hear you are personally vouching for its strength all the way down to 19hz. Enjoy.

Carl.

P.S. I also said Kurt "would not go wrong" with either a RSW-12 or RSW-15.

[michael hurd]

ncsubum: Just because a class A amplifier has voltage acrosss the transistors at all times does not mean that it has " more control ". Yes a class B or class AB has slightly higher distortion products, but produce less heat. A well designed class AB amplifier which has the right amount of feedback with temperature compensating bias circuitry will sound very good.

There are all different topologies, and they all have good points and bad points. Class A are huge power wasters, and make a lot of heat at idle, as the voltage is dissipated as heat. Run this amp to clipping, and it will actually run cooler, as the voltage is not being dissipated as heat.

Class G amps are termed rail switchers, that have different rail voltages, and as the voltage approaches that of the rail, they switch to a higher voltage rail. This allows the voltage across the transistors to remain low, and therefore produce much less heat. ( carver m-1.0, 1.5 )

Class h uses the input signal to modulate the rail voltage, which is kept slighly higher than what is needed by the transistors, therefore producing much less heat. A small input signal results in small voltage across the rails. ( sunfire amps )