Center Advice

[chasliss]

I would like add a center channel speaker to my home theater setup. Right now I have La Scalas as the main speakers and I have KG 1.2s for rear speakers (although I'm using the KGs for centers until I get a center speaker). What center channel speaker will do the job for this setup? Any help would be appreciated.

Charlie

[Frzninvt]

Ideal center, another La Scala! No room you say, use a Heresy I then. Anything else would be too small and would not keep up with the La Scala's unfortunately.

[STL]

Frzninvt's reply is right on the mark. The only other option you have is acquiring a squawker and tweet horn and building a custom center.

[colterphoto1]

I've always been of the opinion that 'timbre' matching is irrelevant in the HT/2ch system debate. When watching HT, the center does most of the work, when in 2 ch mode it is inop.

I use a RC7 (specialty center-channel speaker) with my Cornwalls. It keeps up efficiency wise, and the 'timbre' difference when listening to HT is not a factor in my mind. I'd much rather have this setup than watch HT with a center channel speaker such as LaScala or heresy that was never intended to be a center channel speaker. Others will disagree.

michael

[notneB]

I also agree with frzninvt, but you need to have the right receiver/pre/amp to run stuff. I had a technics that I ran with klf-30's that had an audible but non-objectionable hiss; but when I switched to la scalas I had to switch receivers because it was so loud; sensitivity can be a b#tch.

[IndyKlipschFan]

You can get the same.. driver wise... sound from a Heresey....in the middle and tweeters. A lot of people have used older vertical Cornwall II's (on their side..now horizontal) with great results..

While I might dissagree with Michael, (Colter photo 1) I think Timbre.. in other words the "voice".. The lows, mids, and highs, from a scene panning left to center to right is critical to have it be seemless. Needs to be from the same speaker or very very close to it.. Thus my suggestions of the Hersey (It will need a sub too) or a Cornwall II.. sounds incredible..Both Heritage. The only draw back is, a Cornwall is big.

That said.. and here is where Mike breaks the rule and "kinda wins." There is soo much info on any HT disc to the center channel. You may find the best option is to just go all out and get the best center and let the sides be fillers....and not competeing with it. The Ref 7 center does an incredible job at this...and overshadows the La Scalas .. SO Mike is happy. I still feel he is wrong, but you know I learned something a long time ago in Audio... What the end user likes is the answer. (A few of us need to remember this on the board too.)

That said.. Never, Never, Never, skimp on the center though. Always better to get and use the same.. ( This sentence edited added after I posted this the first time.) or a better speaker here....for HT. Thats why I LOVE the older vertical, on their sides horizontal, Cornwall II's. They go lower than any other Heritage speaker other than K horns, and have that very big CLASSIC Heritage sound too.

BTW, the La Scala was designed as a PA speaker for the Rockafeller campaign too. Made his voice BOOM above the crowds.

Also remember, ColterPhoto1 uses Dolby pro logic in an older Yamaha. Not Dolby Digital, DTS or THX or any full range real surrounds yet. We need to suggest to him to upgrade and bring him into the 21st century and expose him to his ways!!! LOL (I have known Mike ColterPhoto1 since I was like 10- 11 yrs old. I can kid him, were friends!! He also is an EXCELLENT wedding photographer too.)

[j-malotky]

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On 8/11/2004 10:19:26 PM IndyKlipschFan wrote:

Never Never Never skimp on the center though. Always better to get a better speaker here....for HT.

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Don't skimp on the center, especially if your mains are the larger Heritage speakers.

I am not sure why the above posters's systems don't show that. Maybe they only watch movies that are exclusively dialog only????

It has been my experiance that matching the center to your mains is the only way to go.

JM

[SCOOTERDOG]

Quote "I'd much rather have this setup than watch HT with a center channel speaker such as LaScala or heresy that was never intended to be a center channel speaker. Others will disagree."

I must correct you on your observation regarding the use of a la scala as a center. PK used a Belle(essentially a La Scala) as a center between Khorns to fill in the gap of 2 channel stereo. This was well before any DD or surround system. I remember PK sitting down with us explaining why this was done; it was on the lines that using a center Belle or La Scala provided you with reproduction on par with the way we would hear an orchestra playing live. Besides the RC7 will Not keep up with a La Scala no matter how many times you tell yourself it does. First off it is only a 2 way system and is 6db down in efficiency. It may be rated down to 45hz but at what output. Don't get me wrong I think the RC7 is a great center but not designed to match the heritage line. I had a similar problem when I bought my Klipsch center. It was ok but it could never keep up with my La Scala's. I went a different route since I could not fit another La Scala, I built my own. I utilized components from three different klipsch lines to build a 3 way center capable of matching Timbre, highs, mid and bass response, as many of us here have done.

[Frzninvt]

Colterphoto1 what the hell are you talking about that the Heresy or La Scala were never designed to be centers? That is exactly what PWK had in mind for the Heresy, subsequently, the Cornwall, La Scala and lastly in 1971 the Belle! You need to do a little more reading and investigating before tossing out generalizations.

You must be trying to make up for your center channel shortcomings for not using a correctly timbre matched center in your setup. Believe me whether you can hear it or not IT does make a difference. You might as well sell those Cornwalls and buy RF-7's you would be better off. Hey but its your ears and your system and if it sounds acceptable to you that is all that really matters.

[Olorin]

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On 8/11/2004 7:15:43 PM colterphoto1 wrote:

I've always been of the opinion that 'timbre' matching is irrelevant in the HT/2ch system debate. When watching HT, the center does most of the work, when in 2 ch mode it is inop.

I use a RC7 (specialty center-channel speaker) with my Cornwalls. It keeps up efficiency wise, and the 'timbre' difference when listening to HT is not a factor in my mind. I'd much rather have this setup than watch HT with a center channel speaker such as LaScala or heresy that was never intended to be a center channel speaker. Others will disagree.

michael

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They certainly will.

For one thing, I'm not sure why you're bringing 2 Channel into the mix at all -- the original poster specifically stated that this was for his HT setup.

For another, the Heresy was originally intended to be a center, as was the La Scala. People started buying them in pairs as cheaper alternatives to the big Khorns, and eventually pairs became the default way they were sold.

Lastly, while it's true that the center will handle the bulk of the DIALOGUE, it is absolutely untrue that it does most of the WORK. Anything that lends directionality to the sound comes from one or more of the other speakers. Anything ambient comes from everything else, and there is ambience all the itme. Anytime something bumps, swooshes, splatters, scatters, bursts, booms, bangs, or blows up, it's not the center doing most of that.

Your last paragraph says it -- "the 'timbre' difference when listening to HT is not a factor in my mind." In YOUR mind, maybe. I'd venture to say that you're getting out into the flat end of the bell curve with that opinion. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your opinion, just that if you cruise around in here a bit, all the anguish over matched center channels, the price of Academies, and so on should tell you that most people prioritize the timbre match somewhat differently from you.

[J.4knee]

OK I have done the Reference - Heritage mix and it works and does not sound bad. That having been said it is a mistake to do so IMO. The timbre mismatch is very noticeable and my Reference could not even attempt to keep up with my La Scala Mains, granted it was not an RC 7. I always knew where that speaker was sonically. I am now using the top section of a La Scala industrial model until I can complete my center rebuild which will be a full La Scala. There is a much more seamless panning across front array the sound is exceptional but I do need to add the woofer soon. I use Heresy IIs for surrounds and IMO my entire rig now is a well-balanced rig. Again the sound appears to be seamless. You dont notice the sound leave one speaker and go to another as much, it just moves around you. The speaker-to-speaker move was very obvious in my Reference-Heritage mix. I am building 3 ALK crossovers for the La Scala's and I have a cabinet but I still need a K33/E.

My recommendations for your center is as follows:

1. Choose a third La Scala or a Belle Klipsch best choice

2. Choose a Cornwall either iteration, a Vertical Cornwall would be best Cornwall selection but hard to find.

3. Choose a Heresy either iteration

4. Choose a Forte or Chorus.

5. Get a La Scala Sqawker and Tweeter and make your own Center.

[IndyKlipschFan]

I re edited my above post. (Added some explanation)

[colterphoto1]

Frz,

What I am referring to is that in PWK's day, there was no discreet center channel with the directionality needed for today's modern home theatre setups. Just because the Klipsch founder used a Belle, LaScala, or other cabinet for an 'electrically-derived' third channel is a far cry from our needs for a specifically engineered center/dialog speaker today.

I am very pleased with my two-channel setup using Cornwalls, and equally happy using a modern RC7 center channel speaker in conjunction with them for HT use. No, I'm not Dolby DIgital yet and maybe it will make a huge difference with the capabilities of that system to localize sounds LCR, or anywhere in between the three mains. If so, I gladly swallow my words and will trash the RC7 before I will give up my Cornwalls. I just think that the directionality and crispness (transient attack, if you will) of the RC is far superior to that of a Heresy or LaScala. Others will, of course, differ.

BTW Roger (INdyKlipschFan) point well taken, I've GOT to get a digital receiver! Thanks for the kick in the pants.

Michael

[popbumper]

Not to belabor the point, but:

"I've always been of the opinion that 'timbre' matching is irrelevant in the HT/2ch system debate. When watching HT, the center does most of the work, when in 2 ch mode it is inop."....

Is ABSOLUTELY false. I have a set of Forte L&R, that I tried three center speakers with:

1) KG2 center - close, but there was definitely a "dullness" to the KG2 as compared to the Forte

2) Heresy II center - my God, I love the sound of the Heresy II, but as a center between Fortes, I thought I was "gonna die". The sound was SO much brighter -in one particular passage in a movie where some folks were in a nightclub and a horn player was on stage (and the camera was pointed at his horn), the sound was GREAT until it panned right (and into the Forte), and the sound COMPLETELY changed. This movie ALONE convinced me it was time to seek out another speaker.

3) Academy - yes, yes, yes, what more can I say, it's WONDERFUL to have a seamless soundstage.

It's easy to criticize timbre matching until you have a mismatch, then it is a painful reality. And, while your statement "the center does most of the work" is partially true, L to R and R to L sound sweeps are common in soundtracks, so you CANNOT escape a timbre mismatch issue. Try it, you'll hate it.

Popbumper

[colterphoto1]

I've taken enough heat on this topic that I'm going to ask my friend IndyKlipschFan, to bring over a heresy or another cornwall so I can A/B that setup with my RC7. I'll upgrade to a Dolby Digital receiver for an accurate test as well.

Does anyone out there have any particular movies that would help accentuate the timbre mismatch between my Cornwalls and RC7. I'm guessing anything with slow pans across the front soundstage would be best. Much appreciated.

Michael

[popbumper]

Colter:

If you can get ahold of the movie "Talented Mr. Ripley", with Matt Damon, when they are in Italy at a nightclub, there is a trumpet player on stage. The scene comes on, the camera is pointed right at the bell of the trumpet, and the music is playing. After a second or two, the camera makes a quick pan to the right, and the trumpet sound follows into the right speaker. This is an EXCELLENT test, because it is an obvious center to right sound transition, and the sound of the trumpet (brass) is a good way to check horn speaker matching, IMHO. I'm sure there are plenty of other suggestions, but this one is mine.

Popbumper

[Olorin]

The "Balin's Tomb" scene in Fellowship of the Rings. When Pippin knocks the corpse into the well, pay close attention the the sound of the chain as everthing falls in. A/B it with the center on and with the center set to phantom. The tinkles and sparkles in the chain sounds will do a good job of illuminating the differences.

[colterphoto1]

thanks for the test info.

not be belabor the point (which I'm losing anyway), but if Timbre (which I would define as the frequency smoothness and coloration) of a speaker is so critical to match, then isn't that an admission that our beloved Klipsch speakers, whatever genre, are not as smooth of response as we would like and that they do add a coloration to the sound source? I realize that there is no 'ideal' speaker/room combination (well maybe artto has one) that outputs exactly what is input, but geeeez fellas, can you really tell differences? I am an ex sound engineer, so methinks I have a pretty good set of ears in terms of mixing capability, picking out frequencies, etc. Maybe I just need to be exposed to more and different systems. I recently moved and its amazing how different a system sounds in a new room, yet our ears adjust to this newness in short order.

I still have trouble with the theory that this timbre match is more critical than transient response, horizontal dispersion, etc. For instance, would a center channel LaScala even come close to THX specs? (not that is the end all). Well, I'm rambling again, but try to help me out here.

Thanks,

Michael

[Frzninvt]

5 minutes in my living room and you would be laughing about THX standards - trust me! I am sure I can far exceed them! You don't watch a movie you are part of it, you experience it, and that is the way it should be. I could buy a bunch of THX logos and put them on my speakers but just that would mean about as much as the THX specs do.

[Olorin]

Well there's part of the problem -- you're making up definitions for words.

dictionary.com has this for it's first entry for timbre -- The combination of qualities of a sound that distinguishes it from other sounds of the same pitch and volume.

Timbre is the speaker's "voice." When I talk about timbre matching, I'm not making any statement about the quality of the voice -- a LifeStyle system is timbre matched, after all -- I'm only noting whether or not all of the speakers speak with the same voice. A timbre matched system reproduces the same sound the same way from each speaker.

So when you talk about transient response, horizontal dispersion, etc, those things really have very little to do with timbre match per se. I suppose each speaker in a timbre matched system should do those things the same way, since those properties would certainly be part of the speaker's voice, but timbre is not so much a measure as it is a property. Is this making any sense?