cjgeraci Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 In a recent thread on preamps, a short discussion began regarding outboard DACs improving 2-channel CD players. In fact, Mark Deneen commented that he was surprised the issue of outboard DACs was not addressed here more often. I would like to open up the subject. The earlier discussion mentioned an outboard DAC improving base CD or DVD players. I currently run one of three sources, two CD players: a Rega Planet and an early 90s vintage ES Sony changer, and one universal/DVD player: a Denon DVD 2900. Out of the three, my 2900 currently sounds the best for CDs. Would an outboard DAC benefit me, even with my 2900? Or would I be better off trying to improve one of the CD players with an outboard DAC? Also, what is the current reasonable best buy for improving the digital sound for horns? MSB link dac III? (Nelson or no?, upsampling or no?) or the Benchmark Media DAC 1? Or another option not previously mentioned? Inquiring minds want to know...... Tony, Mark, Tom....who else is using outboard DACs? As always, thanks. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted August 23, 2004 Author Share Posted August 23, 2004 Budget-wise, let's just assume that you wanted to spend no more than about $1000. What would you do, outboard DAC-wise? Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 All that aside - 'cuz I'm NEVER going to replace 2000 OLD CDs with 5 new flavors of competing multi-channel formatted discs (what are they up to now 8 channels or so?) +++++++++++++++++++ Exactly the point! 2000 cds times $ 15 each equals $ 30,000 worth of CDs I really do not want to think about spending that much again. There is a real need for me for CDs to sound better. And with my rig some CDs end up sounding more lifeless if poorly mastered. ============================ I really do not favor any particular DAC. A couple of random thoughts. 1. I have never read or heard any downside to upsampling. it sure is voodoo making music interpolating algorithims. It makes a differnce in my rig that I would never take out. 2. The transport and display give off EMI that can adversely affect the DAC. Get the DAC out of the transport box. 3. If vibration control is important for a TT and CArtridge; why would it be unimportant for a CD player? 4. Burr Brown multi bit DACs dound better than 1 bit DACs. I have never heard an expensive well implemented one bit DAC, I am sure they exist but I never have been exposed to one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khorn58 Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 I love my Benchmark DAC 1. I have 2 one right now one feeds my studio moniters when I am mixing in the digital world. The other is set up in my Home khorn room hot wired to a old Nak oms7. This Dac 1 has trully taking over in the pro recording World replacing many 3 grand plus converters. Many feel there is nothing better and a lot of a mastering enginers use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAR69 Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 I second the Benchmark DAC - its tops. I use alot of the Benchmark pro gear and am impressed with the quality of product. I also agree that the Burr Brown DAC are good, but outboard DACs sound better to me and my ears even on JBL studio monitors. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 After reading reviews of jitter and its effects on CD performance, plus learning about the better DACs in newer CD players, I bought a California Audio Gamma DAC for $125 in 2001. I have NOT seriously auditioned, in my own home, with the same music and equipment, for EnjoyTheMusic.com any other players, but then I have NOT heard any others that blow away my ten-year old Rotel 951 with this DAC. I dont see their DACs offered for sale anymore, though eBay has their Delta DAC models and Froogle has their CD/DVD player My review is at: http://www.audioreview.com/reviews/DAC/product_4303.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dflip Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Mark, I noticed the same thing about the Benchmark DAC1. It would save an upgrade of the clock in my Teac unit and would give me an external DAC. I am trying to see what the Cdn distributor wants for the unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Benchmark is one of the toasts of the professional audio industry. Their DAC's are featured in some of the top mastering houses in the nation. I can't see anything wrong with dropping a grand on two channels of their excellent product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted August 24, 2004 Author Share Posted August 24, 2004 Thanks for the responses. The Benchmark DAC appears to be getting high praise, and I am already getting the impression that the sound of my Denon 2900 would also improve with the addition of an outboard DAC. For about $1000, looks like you could get a Benchmark DAC or a Full Nelson MSB dac III. Anyone see any comparisons between the two? One feature that the MSB dac III has is adjustable filtering, where the high end is artifically curbed to help smooth it out. Via jumpers, you can turn the filtering on and off. Does anyone know if the Benchmark has a similar feature? Or are Benchmark owners finding the sound so smooth and creamy on the high end to begin with that they would consider a filter an artificial loss of detail when it was not necessary to do so? Additionally, does anyone know if the Benchmarks are potentially upgradable? It appears as though the various MSB versions are upgradable by the user to some degree. However, going with MSB looks to be a more complicated proposition than the Benchmark where the a number of MSB extras are encouraged (i.e. outboard power supply, etc.). In comparison, the Benchmark looks relatively simple, but simple is often better. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 ---------------- On 8/24/2004 2:15:49 AM cjgeraci wrote: Thanks for the responses. The Benchmark DAC appears to be getting high praise, and I am already getting the impression that the sound of my Denon 2900 would also improve with the addition of an outboard DAC. One feature that the MSB dac III has is adjustable filtering, where the high end is artifically curbed to help smooth it out. Via jumpers inside, you can turn the filtering on and off. Does anyone know if the Benchmark has a similar feature? Or are Benchmark owners finding the sound so smooth and creamy on the high end to begin with that they would consider a filter an artificial loss of detail when it was not necessary to do so? Carl. ---------------- Frankly, a Benchmark DAC is not dissimilar to our beloved Klipsch speakers - it tells the honest truth about the source material - no color, just the naked truth. If that's what you want in a DAC, then Benchmark is your best choice. This is the reason so many studios use Benchmark DAC's - they tell you the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 ah, smooth and creamy, now you're talkin my language! listen, the music reproduction chain is a wierd thing. I prefer to try to get as extended, accurate and clear signal from my CD to my amp as possible, my amp adds the cream. I worry that if too many components are adding cream then I could get out of control...you know? the benchmark is a no brainer IMHO for accuracy, frequency extension and bass slam, it simply is a reference class DAC. however creamy it will not be (though the clear, extended highs are sometimes considered creamy compared to more run-of-the-mill dacs)...a tube dac may get your juices flowing, they add warm cream to signals...speaking of juice... I would not make any change until you have your new preamp in the system and have listened for a while. Once you get a grip on the system sound and what you feel needs tweaking THEN start to look for a DAC wuth charateristics that get you closer to what you feel you lack, sound-wise in your system. warm regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted August 24, 2004 Author Share Posted August 24, 2004 ---------------- On 8/24/2004 2:22:23 AM Griffinator wrote: ---------------- Frankly, a Benchmark DAC is not dissimilar to our beloved Klipsch speakers - it tells the honest truth about the source material - no color, just the naked truth. If that's what you want in a DAC, then Benchmark is your best choice. This is the reason so many studios use Benchmark DAC's - they tell you the truth. ---------------- Griff: I am a little confused about your last comment. My very limited understanding of the main functions of an outboard DAC is to take the lower bit signal and upconvert it (or whatever is the proper term) and modify its sound so that the end resultant sound becomes smoother, more detailed, wider soundstage, with a warmer tonality, etc. Kind of like vinyl, but with more detail and soundstage. Your comment above, unless I misunderstood it, implies just the opposite - the original CD sound and arguably overaggressive CD high-end may still be there with the Benchmark. After all, we all want our CDs on our system to sound better, and we go about it a number of ways (tubes, x-over mods, etc.) This would just be working on it also from the source end. Maybe I just do not understand the full function and purpose of an outboard DAC....Could you or someone else please clarify for me? Like Mark, this whole outboard DAC issue is a bit of black hole for me also. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted August 24, 2004 Author Share Posted August 24, 2004 ---------------- On 8/24/2004 9:56:24 AM mdeneen wrote: Many of the DACs with somewhat low prices are talking about a unit with a cheap wall-wart power supply. By the time you add their "real power supply" the pricing get's a bit different. (MSB even offer a PSU that costs more than the DAC itself!) Benchmark including nice built-in power supply - $975 MSB Nelson Link III WITH good ext. power supply - $1400 Monarchy M22B including nice built-in power supply - $1179 Channell Islands VDA-1 WITH good ext power supply - $500 Wadia 27ix - $8,950 I haven't searched for used units yet. mdeneen ---------------- Mark, I noticed that. In fact, the MSB website mildly discourages the use of their upper end DACs (starting with the Nelson and up to the platinum) with the stock power supplies. However, I read a professional reviewer who ran the Nelson version fine without the beefier power supply - that was just suggested as the next upgrade. A bit confusing because I do not really want to spend the extra $400 just yet.......but, if a Nelson would suffer without the beefier supply?? Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royster Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 One of the best buys for a outboard dac is the sonic frontiers TRANS DAC they can be picked up on audiogon in the #250.00 ~ $300.00 range new price was around $1,000.00 A jitterbug or reclocker in front of a DAC is money well spent. I use a jitterbug with the Sonic Frontiers DAC 1 (tube output stage)and have been happy with it. Both purchased on audiogon for under $1,000.00 several years ago. The tube output really smooths the edges of the digital format. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shockoman Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 Finger check..double post ...sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shockoman Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 Thanks for opening this thread. I too have been looking into DACs and their potential effects. I opened a thread in Sound Cards/General on this topic with a bit of a twist..no feedback so far there. I was looking for feedback on whether an outboard DAC or the DACs on an M-Audio card for example, in an HTPC/Jukebox combo would be a better setup. Don't mean to hijack this thread, but any comments along that line? I have been looking at the Perpetual Technolgies units as a possibility. Their P-1A, P-3A and P3 power supply look interesting and can be had on Audiogon for about the $1K level you are looking at. Anybody have any feedback on these units? Thanks in advance... Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted August 24, 2004 Author Share Posted August 24, 2004 Mark: Thanks for the explanation. That helps alot. I guess, that in addition to researching more on the external DACS, I need to learn more about my Denon 2900. I know it utilizes an internal DAC for the DVD-Audio and SACD portion (I think Denon's version of a Burr-Brown), but I do not know how much this internal DAC is used when playing CDs through the analog outputs and/or the overall quality of the internal DAC. Also, thanks for the clue in on upsampling to 192k. I have also read that it is controversial. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch RF7 Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 I use the MSB Link DAC III with the 24bit/132khz upsampling upgrade installed, I have it set to filter the high end on the DAC via jumpers for a slightly smoother sound. I have the Monarchy audio DIP Classic 44.1khz jitter reducer, I have a 300 disc Sony CD changer running optical into the Jitter reducer which then dumps the signal from the CD player, reclocks it with 6x more power and sends a pure, virtually jitter free signal to the outboard DAC which in turn now has a clean, strong signal to work with and upsamples it via a switch i can flip depending if I want to do 44.1khz or 132khz, in 132khz mode the bass gets a little deeper ever so slightly and the highs get a little more expansive, sounds just a tad more spacial. The Jitter reducer I think made a nice diffrence, it smoothed out the sound and made the bass tighter and the highs clearer, vocals are more natural and there is just a tad more space between the instruments and the background is dead silent, I mean a pitch black background with no noise at all, I can really tell it sucks alot of the jitter out of the signal compared to without the DIP box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch RF7 Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 I have the Denon DVD 3800 doing duty as my DVD Audio player and DVD player, it is a wonderful player indeed, wieghs 20 lbs and is a heavy tank of a player. Paid $400 shipped off Ebay just last week, the sound is warm and detailed and has nice thick bass. I use a Marantz SA-8260 for my SACD's which is a 20lb player and very well built and sounds wonderful. I use three seperate sources for my media. DVD-Audio on the Denon, SACD on the Marantz, Redbook on the Sony + DAC setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted August 24, 2004 Author Share Posted August 24, 2004 This is how Denon describes the DACs in the 2900: "DENON designed, Burr-Brown 24-bit, 192-kHz DSD-1790 Audio DACs that decode PCM and DSD signals discretely with no down-conversion of DSD." The question is whether or not these DACs are only applicable to DVD-Audio/SACD or whether they are also working for the CD playback as well. Hmmmmm...... RF7 makes a good point though. I am not adverse to ending up with running multiple sources for different media. The DVD-Audio from my Denon 2900 is nothing short of spectacular. I may still opt for an external DAC that I could always use on the early-90's Sony as a dedicated CD player. the MSB link dac III seems to intrigue me because of the adjustable filters as RF7 pointed out. However, that may require a separate device to reclock before entering, and the Benchmark Media DAC already has a reclocker. Hmmmm..... More research to do. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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