Piranha Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 I find it hard to believe that anything other than dual SVS SS subs can possibly keep up with the quick horn loaded bass of the LaScala? Does anyone have any other suggestions as far as subs go paired with LS's? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 What about the new Klipsch range - in particular the KW-120 THX sunwoofer? I've been trying to access the specs, but I can't download the pdf file. It would be worth having a look at. I would assume this subwoofer would be a step up from the RSW-12 and RSW-15. If so it may be a good match for the La Scala. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piranha Posted August 27, 2004 Author Share Posted August 27, 2004 Yes, I heard the Klipsch THX in Indy. They are VERY VERY good. Although I still have doubts that even they can keep up with the quick LS bass. Can anyone from Klipsch confirm or deny this? Thanks I understand the RSW-12 and RSW-15 cannot keep up. At least according to others around here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 Piranha---An Edgar Seismic basshorn will do the trick. Bruce is right up the road, you really should go hear his stuff. Tom Danley's DIY Labhorn will also do the trick as will the Danley designed ServoDrive Contrabass. Also an array of several 15", short-stroking pro-sound direct-radiators will work. My dual JBL Pro 4648s, a total of 4 15" drivers, kept up with my A5s no sweat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 ---------------- On 8/27/2004 12:08:36 AM Piranha wrote: I find it hard to believe that anything other than dual SVS SS subs can possibly keep up with the quick horn loaded bass of the LaScala? Does anyone have any other suggestions as far as subs go paired with LS's? Thanks! ---------------- First of all, there is nothing "quick" about a bass horn. In fact, bass horns usually slow down the direct radiator! It's the painful reality of the relationship between efficiency, bandwidth and frequency response. Looking at the current stock of JBL drivers, I would have to respectfully disagree with Tommy B. I don't see any driver on the pro website that I would use to build a subwoofer around. First requisite is an Fs in the low 20s. To build a DR subwoofer that can match the sensitivity of a bass horn two things are needed, a large volume velocity and lots of power capacity. The driver I selected is the McCauley 6174. It will require a 14 cubic ft enclosure vented with a 1kW amp. The driver can be found on the McCauley website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAS Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 ---------------- On 8/27/2004 12:08:36 AM Piranha wrote: I find it hard to believe that anything other than dual SVS SS subs can possibly keep up with the quick horn loaded bass of the LaScala? Does anyone have any other suggestions as far as subs go paired with LS's? Thanks! ---------------- That sounds a little odd to me. I can't say I've ever heard a LaScala that is overly impressive in the lower frequencies. As far as subs go, SVS subs will add much more to the lower end than the LaScalas are capable of. True, they're very sensitive and they have great SPL and clarity throughout their bandwidth, however frequencies below 50 Hz are not their strong suit. p.s. Dual SS subs would crack the concrete foundation under your house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hwatkins Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 I am with john Warren here on the JBL stuf, except if you are interested in a sub that just looks at a higher freq fill. Further, take a look at a bunch of stuff, most good subs can 'keep up' per se. I remain a fan of both Klipsch and SVS - SVS is my favorite price to performance units. 2 would be an overkill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiob Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 The VMPS Larger sub with the right amp wil play louder than and go lower than the svs, and probobly any other sub out, 17hz. 575.00 kit, better check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 Some of these comments have me baffled ! John your saying a bass horn slows the bass down ? You would describe a Lascala as having slow bass ? Maybe I'm miss reading. The last thing I would describe Lascala bass as is slow. I think the new THX stuff would easily keep up with the Lascala. Trey has it and say's it blends perfectly. How low the Lascala bass will go in my experience is really placement/amplifier/preamp/source/dependant. I have tested mine to be dead flat to 45hz and down 1db at 40hz but my placement is extreme with the Lascala back in a cubby hole surrounded on 3 sides. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiob Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 ---------------- On 8/27/2004 5:51:29 AM John Warren wrote: ---------------- On 8/27/2004 12:08:36 AM Piranha wrote: I find it hard to believe that anything other than dual SVS SS subs can possibly keep up with the quick horn loaded bass of the LaScala? Does anyone have any other suggestions as far as subs go paired with LS's? Thanks! ---------------- First of all, there is nothing "quick" about a bass horn. In fact, bass horns usually slow down the direct radiator! It's the painful reality of the relationship between efficiency, bandwidth and frequency response. Looking at the current stock of JBL drivers, I would have to respectfully disagree with Tommy B. I don't see any driver on the pro website that I would use to build a subwoofer around. First requisite is an Fs in the low 20s. To build a DR subwoofer that can match the sensitivity of a bass horn two things are needed, a large volume velocity and lots of power capacity. The driver I selected is the McCauley 6174. It will require a 14 cubic ft enclosure vented with a 1kW amp. The driver can be found on the McCauley website. ---------------- Odd, I have owned 2 sets of k horns in the past, one thing was for sure they have the fastest and tightest bass I have heard through a loudspeaker. Maybe your lascallas have blown woofers? Check out the VMPS SUBS, YOU WILL BE GLAD YOU DID> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InnovaZero Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 ---------------- On 8/27/2004 9:39:47 AM radiob wrote: The VMPS Larger sub with the right amp wil play louder than and go lower than the svs, and probobly any other sub out, 17hz. 575.00 kit, better check it out. ---------------- There are plenty of subs that can beat that, price to performance is awesome sure and it can play 17hz..sweet. Lots of subs that can dig deeper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 "I am with john Warren here on the JBL stuf, except if you are interested in a sub that just looks at a higher freq fill." While I haven't listened to them yet (still setting up the room) I just built a pair of subs with JBL drivers (Sub-1500) that I expect will 'keep up' with my LaScalas fine. They have a Q of about 0.5. The idea of 'quickness' of bass is partially a component of the subwoofer but it is also equally (or more so) a component of your room. If you room has really bad resonances in it it will make almost any subwoofer sound mushy and uncontrolled. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 John---I understand your concerns. However I reached 25hz flat, in room, with my 4648s. Not bad. They were placed along a wall and had 6db of boost at 30hz from the Parts Connection plate-amp I used. This was measured with a RTA and a calibrated mic. Now I know it's supposed to be a no-no pushing vented boxes below tuning like that but as a practical matter, in a house, it worked very well. With four 15" drivers to share the work and the incredible, overbuilt quality of the 2226 drivers there was no distress evident at some VERY loud volumes. Given their high efficiency (over 100db for the pair) and dynamic capabilities they could track my A5s very well. Ahhh, but you knew they'd do that, you were wondering if they'd do the low-bass thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiob Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 ---------------- There are plenty of subs that can beat that, price to performance is awesome sure and it can play 17hz..sweet. Lots of subs that can dig deeper. ---------------- VMPS New Larger Subwoofer 12 polycone active, 15 polycone active, 15 passive large lowboy round corner cabinet Subwoofer, 17Hz to 250Hz, lite oak, dark oak finishes Power Handling 350W, Impedance 4 Ohms (8 Ohms on special order) KIT w/cabinet $579ea KIT w/o cabinet $329ea Assembled $699ea Shipping in USA (48 states) FREE OPTIONS: Megawoofers, stacked magnet (80oz) 12 woven carbon fiber and 15" black poly active woofers, increase power handling to 600W $70ea additional. Piano black finish $40 additional. Soundcoat $75 per cabinet. Dual voice option not necessary since two woofers can be separated and one channel fed to each (dual 8 Ohm loads) Manufacturers note: the highest output (over 115dB/1m at 20Hz) subwoofer available. Megawoofers highly recommended for increased power handling, speed (double sized motor) and definition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAS Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 ---------------- On 8/27/2004 10:09:38 AM radiob wrote: ---------------- There are plenty of subs that can beat that, price to performance is awesome sure and it can play 17hz..sweet. Lots of subs that can dig deeper. ---------------- VMPS New Larger Subwoofer 12 polycone active, 15 polycone active, 15 passive large lowboy round corner cabinet Subwoofer, 17Hz to 250Hz, lite oak, dark oak finishes Power Handling 350W, Impedance 4 Ohms (8 Ohms on special order) KIT w/cabinet $579ea KIT w/o cabinet $329ea Assembled $699ea Shipping in USA (48 states) FREE OPTIONS: Megawoofers, stacked magnet (80oz) 12 woven carbon fiber and 15" black poly active woofers, increase power handling to 600W $70ea additional. Piano black finish $40 additional. Soundcoat $75 per cabinet. Dual voice option not necessary since two woofers can be separated and one channel fed to each (dual 8 Ohm loads) Manufacturers note: the highest output (over 115dB/1m at 20Hz) subwoofer available. Megawoofers highly recommended for increased power handling, speed (double sized motor) and definition. ---------------- Never seen any specific measurements on that sub configuration, however the specs don't read all that impressive. And the manufacturer's note that mentions 115dB at 20 Hz and roll off at 17? That sounds odd as well. With an exterior finish and soundcoat you'll spend around $900. Just as a comparison, the SVS PB2+ cost me $1,100 and included 2 active drivers, 900W rms amp, crossover, subsonic filter, and is a killer well below 17 Hz. Not trying to get into a peeing match. Just an observation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiob Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 ---------------- On 8/27/2004 11:15:12 AM CAS wrote ---------------- Never seen any specific measurements on that sub configuration, however the specs don't read all that impressive. And the manufacturer's note that mentions 115dB at 20 Hz and roll off at 17? That sounds odd as well. With an exterior finish and soundcoat you'll spend around $900. Just as a comparison, the SVS PB2+ cost me $1,100 and included 2 active drivers, 900W rms amp, crossover, subsonic filter, and is a killer well below 17 Hz. Not trying to get into a peeing match. Just an observation. ---------------- It is hard for me to compare SVS To the VMPS subs because I havnt heard neither, however I do own a set of VMPS ST R/SE loudspeakers and the bass cabinet in them is supposed to be the larger subwoofer. I have never heard bass control that compares to the vmps loudspeakers. Brian Chenney of VMPS has won the CES audio show in Eroupe with best of show regardless of price in 2002 with his RM40 loudspeakers <4,000.00>, so he is very credible in my book. I looked into the SVS subs before I purchased my Paradigm servo 15 <$1,900+$300 x-30 crossover> I wish I had bought 2 VMPS larger subs and a used sunfire 300 two. THIS IS SVS "ULTRA SUB"When you hear a CS-Ultra package fired up you'll understand why we needed to enhance the design of our tried and true cylinder design. These are frightening subwoofers. Brutally powerful, yet subtle, accurate and natural sounding, the CS-Ultra package will astound you with bass, the likes of which few have ever heard...at any price. Expect twice the the performance of the standard twin 20-39PC package performance down low (a whopping 7.5dBs at 20Hz!). This is bass that doesn't just "hit" you. It pushes right through your body and keeps on going. Want to see the flat response we're talking about. --------- I TOOK THAT FROM THE SVS SIGHT, NOW LOOK AT THE 7.5 DB AT 20 HZ.THE vmps IS 115,AT 17 NOT 7.5 AT 20. NOTICE THE SVS IS USING THE SAME TYPE OF SPEC AS THE VMPS, HOWEVER THE SVS DOES NOT HAVE A SUB AVAILABLE THAT OUT PERFORMS THE VMPS MANUFACURES NOTE. THEY DO NOT HAVE A SUB WITH A ROLLOFF UNDER 20, SO HOW DOES YOURS GO SO LOW? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hwatkins Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 ---------------- On 8/27/2004 10:04:04 AM sfogg wrote: "I am with john Warren here on the JBL stuf, except if you are interested in a sub that just looks at a higher freq fill." While I haven't listened to them yet (still setting up the room) I just built a pair of subs with JBL drivers (Sub-1500) that I expect will 'keep up' with my LaScalas fine. They have a Q of about 0.5. The idea of 'quickness' of bass is partially a component of the subwoofer but it is also equally (or more so) a component of your room. If you room has really bad resonances in it it will make almost any subwoofer sound mushy and uncontrolled. Shawn ---------------- A couple of things here: First - I need to be clear that I haven't auditioned the JBL subs mentioned so it is not 'ear' experience. My opinion was based on comparing manufacturer specs and that there appears to be more appropriate sub components than JBL woofers. That opinion is thinking about a really go low sub. I am a strong fan of many JBL professional component woofers and am using a set now that are fantastic for my purpose. Second - To me quickness is more related to dynamics so we may be in a semantics problem. JBL has no 'quickness' issue. As a matter of fact I think there are a lorge number of quick capable subs out there to work with bass horns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAS Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 ---------------- On 8/27/2004 11:37:39 AM radiob wrote: ---------------- On 8/27/2004 11:15:12 AM CAS wrote ---------------- Never seen any specific measurements on that sub configuration, however the specs don't read all that impressive. And the manufacturer's note that mentions 115dB at 20 Hz and roll off at 17? That sounds odd as well. With an exterior finish and soundcoat you'll spend around $900. Just as a comparison, the SVS PB2+ cost me $1,100 and included 2 active drivers, 900W rms amp, crossover, subsonic filter, and is a killer well below 17 Hz. Not trying to get into a peeing match. Just an observation. ---------------- It is hard for me to compare SVS To the VMPS subs because I havnt heard neither, however I do own a set of VMPS ST R/SE loudspeakers and the bass cabinet in them is supposed to be the larger subwoofer. I have never heard bass control that compares to the vmps loudspeakers. Brian Chenney of VMPS has won the CES audio show in Eroupe with best of show regardless of price in 2002 with his RM40 loudspeakers <4,000.00>, so he is very credible in my book. I looked into the SVS subs before I purchased my Paradigm servo 15 <$1,900+$300 x-30 crossover> I wish I had bought 2 VMPS larger subs and a used sunfire 300 two. THIS IS SVS "ULTRA SUB"When you hear a CS-Ultra package fired up you'll understand why we needed to enhance the design of our tried and true cylinder design. These are frightening subwoofers. Brutally powerful, yet subtle, accurate and natural sounding, the CS-Ultra package will astound you with bass, the likes of which few have ever heard...at any price. Expect twice the the performance of the standard twin 20-39PC package performance down low (a whopping 7.5dBs at 20Hz!). This is bass that doesn't just "hit" you. It pushes right through your body and keeps on going. Want to see the flat response we're talking about. --------- I TOOK THAT FROM THE SVS SIGHT, NOW LOOK AT THE 7.5 DB AT 20 HZ.THE vmps IS 115,AT 17 NOT 7.5 AT 20. NOTICE THE SVS IS USING THE SAME TYPE OF SPEC AS THE VMPS, HOWEVER THE SVS DOES NOT HAVE A SUB AVAILABLE THAT OUT PERFORMS THE VMPS MANUFACURES NOTE. THEY DO NOT HAVE A SUB WITH A ROLLOFF UNDER 20, SO HOW DOES YOURS GO SO LOW? ---------------- Sorry, you're quite misinformed. The phrase you quoted meant 7.5db ABOVE the lower model package for a total of (with the new driver) above 115 dB at 20 Hz. 7.5dB would be the measurement of a whisper. And the other spec you quoted was incorrect as the VMPS website specifically says 115db at 20Hz, not 17Hz. Also, you need to read the SVS website further as most of their subs can be user tuned to roll off at 25, 20 or 16 Hz for maximum SPL or depth. I get response down to 12Hz. And as far as not having a sub that can outperform both of these? The SVS Ultra cylinders, the PB2-Ultra, and especially the B4 (which is really in another class all together). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 "My opinion was based on comparing manufacturer specs and that there appears to be more appropriate sub components than JBL woofers. " The Sub1500 is a very capable driver by all reports (used in the Revel Ultima Sub15). I haven't really looked into a lot of the other JBL drivers though so you may well be right about those. " To me quickness is more related to dynamics so we may be in a semantics problem. " I think we are probably talking about the same thing. Room resonances screw up dynamic contrasts since the room tends to hold on to certain frequencies considerably longer then others. I first heard it attributed to John Dalquist in that 'quick' bass has very little to do with how fast a woofer starts... it has to do with how quickly it (and the sound in the room) stops. Take just about any subwoofer outdoors for example and it will seem to be a much 'quicker/tighter...etc..etc..' subwoofer then in your room as there would be no resonances mucking everything up. "As a matter of fact I think there are a lorge number of quick capable subs out there to work with bass horns." As do I as long as they are crossed over to each other well. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 ---------------- On 8/27/2004 9:41:44 AM NOSValves wrote: You would describe a Lascala as having slow bass ? Maybe I'm miss reading. The last thing I would describe Lascala bass as is slow. ---------------- I think the confusion comes from what people are using the "slow" adjective to represent. If you are to use the term literally to represent how long the driver takes to reproduce a note, well, technically, that is frequency dependant; bass notes have long wavelengths, and therefore all subwoofers are slow. I notice a lot of people describing speakers which roll off early as have a "quick" bass.... yet I feel that it's a polite way of saying they simply have very little bass. If you are talking the time it takes the note to decay... well I doubt anyone here can differentiate the room component versus the subwoofer's. Describing the difference between two subwoofers tested in different rooms is impossible without knowing the room modes. As for LaScalas... most subwoofers will help their weak bass response BUT if you like to listen to them loud on occasion, you'll need a subwoofer that can produce some significant SPL. What you go with will depend on the compromise between budget, size, and performance limitations that you are willing to live with. Later... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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