NOSValves Posted September 10, 2004 Author Share Posted September 10, 2004 Luther, Considering me a friend isn't always the wise thing to do Seriously thanks. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Yeah, no ****. Slamming all of my caps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted September 10, 2004 Author Share Posted September 10, 2004 Dean, How many times do I have to say this ............. I do not think any of the caps mentioned here are of low Quality. I just think they are over priced and just a ripp off. Kind of the same as the high dollar wire market but in most cases to a lessor degree. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Uh...I would say to a lot lesser degree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 Now you're talking, Craig! Parafeed chokes imply a parallel-feed output circuit, but one where the cathode return via 100uf capacitors is different from the usual parallel OPT-to-ground connection (where a much more smaller capacitor is usually used, such as 3,4,5uf). Also, notice that the description does not mention a traditional capacitor bypass of the output stage cathode resistor -- and this is why I used the description as being unconventional. What's another name for this type of connection, though? It's been thrown around in here so much it's become tiresome.........but it tends to sound ultra-good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 Craig: You have nothing to defend! I have said nothing but positive things about your new amp: "There are some special things going on..." "...a promising output tube," etc. I was just hoping someone might make a connection (no pun!)with the return of the OPT to the top of the cathode bias resistor -- aka 'Ultrapath connection' of DRD fame. It's what I did to my Moondogs a couple of years ago, and also what I, LeoK, and now Edster also have in our shunt-feed (or parafeed) amplifiers. I think you will enjoy it, and also might like try experimenting with the AC coupling cap between driver and output stage. I think you might be able to make it faster in terms of higher frequency transient response, since a coupling cap as high as 4uf could (PERHAPS)be acting as somewhat of a low-pass filter. So, a smaller cap is going to cause a bit of an earlier roll-off of bass response, but the overall sound might be a little more transparent. If not, you can always go back to what sounds best. I'm also working on another approach to interstage coupling between driver and output tube, and will be ordering some transformers from Electra-Print for thi$ a$ $oon a$ I can. Wardsweb: Sure, I've known of John Day for years. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted September 11, 2004 Author Share Posted September 11, 2004 Its what you guys call Ultra Path or something like that. I laugh everytime I hear you guys name a capacitor some magical thing in these amps so I couldn't bring myself to mention it Craig PS Eric I wrote this reply before I read your second post. I don't feel I need to defend anything here I bought the amp because it was a great deal and should be a very good example of SET. If it doesn;t float my boat I'll pass the deal on to someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 Mark, you sure know how to cut through the pseudo-scientific bullshirt. PWK would have loved your post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 One of the most amazing posts I have read in a while. It explains why as a plastics engineer I get so confused about the micro aspects of tube ciruit understanding. It will be archived for future generations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 Funny. It would be nice to have the knowledge base necessary to detect the BS when it shows up. The BGs spec out nice, so I figured they must be good. Not that it matters, but I think "radiated" was being used in the sense of "propogated". Thanks Mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiob Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 Just checked the forum, you guys are still goin.... 70 replies? Have at it guys, Im just going to kick back and rock on..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted September 11, 2004 Author Share Posted September 11, 2004 Put some shoes on you hillbilly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 ---------------- On 9/10/2004 4:12:52 PM sunnysal wrote: Frankly I have never heard any amp builder who has tried BG caps say they were anything but the best. I wish I could have afforded them for my amp... tony ---------------- Tony, I wished we lived in the same neighborhood ... I went with the BG's because they were a great upgrade and cost about $300 more as an option. If you could have heard them, you probably would have sprung for the dineros ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 ---------------- On 9/11/2004 10:28:09 AM mdeneen wrote: "While signals pass the electrolyte in the separator that has a thickness of 20,000 times wider than the dielectric layer, some of the signal information is lost, and distortion is radiated due to the slowness of ions and non-linearity. The signal quality deteriorates sharply, and the total performance of the capacitor declines a great deal." ============ There was no attribution of this quote, so I don't know where it comes from. But clearly it is from the head of a wishful-thinking pseudo-technocrat. It sounds impressive, but it's all baloney. "..some of the signal information is lost." Well, AC "signals" don't contain bundles of information - such as bits - which can be lost. Signals - no matter how close we move the "microscope" are a voltage change over time - dV/dt. Period. The prevailing use of the term "signal information" by pseudo scientists creates an impression that there is all kinds of special "stuff" attached to an audio signal and this stuff gets "lost or removed or smeared" by sub-standard parts. Somewhat like a digital photograph wherein pixel depth is reduced from 16 bits to 8 bits. This is not only a poor anology, it's just wrong. "...distortion is radiated.." I shouldn't have to even point out how stupid this is. Distortion is not a form of radiation. "...slowness of ions and non-linearity..." Slowness of ions? How slow? Slow RELATIVE to what? How does this change the speed of electron flow? How is it even RELATED? Non-linearity? Of what specifically? "Linear" and "non-linear" are generic descriptions of transfer functions. They describe a specific system and it's parameters. If you are making a scientific point about a system's "non-linearity" you have to say what SYSTEM is in reference, and which parameters are NOT LINEAR by WHAT FUNCTION. This is not a matter of complicating the discussion or causing the writer to delve into complex detail - this is just basic parlance we are talking about. ANYONE of technical background from engineer to physicist, would describe what SYSTEM they are referring to in such a statement. If I observe water coming out of my hose, and I proclaim, "Well, this is non-linear!" What exactly am I saying? What would be the meaning to another scientist? Do I mean to imply that the pump current and subsequent water pressure is non-linear? Do I mean to imply that the "gallons per minute of flow" is non-linear? Do I mean to imply that the "water distribution pattern on the ground" is non-linear? In other words, my statement would be a non-sequitor. It would convey NOTHING to a hydroligist, engineer, water expert or even gardener! And finally, we have the coup de gras: "...the total performance of the capacitor declines a great deal." This is just so assinine it defies deconstruction. "total performance" - what is that? EVERY single parameter? ".....declines a great deal..." now there's some scientific term if I ever hear one! There may be VERY sound and solid and viable explanations for why Brand X is superior to brand Y, but this was not one of them. This is just pure poetic, fanciful, garbage. mdeneen ---------------- Techno babble or not, BlackGates still remain among the most highly regarded electrolytic capacitors in the WORLD. I know I'm not an amplifier designer, but I tend to think the opinions of many of the premier designers has more than a little weight. As for the demise of BlackGate Capacitors, http://www.musicaldesign.com/what's_new.htm BlackGate may cease production!!! (Expletive deleted)!!!!!! A lousy headline in my opinion, but I didn't make it. Yesterday we received a letter written with great angst from the Japanese exporter of BlackGates. The contract manufacturer for BlackGates is slated to cease production of these incomparable components in 2005 for the Japanese exporter. In fact, we are being asked to make our last order in September if this situation is not reversed. The manufacturer is converting the former BlackGate plant to the production of low-voltage organic semiconductor capacitors. It appears that OS capacitors have as much as 30dB greater noise contribution than BlackGates. The most well known OS capacitor is the Sanyo OS-CON which is a part used in some audio products, but more so in computer decoupling applications. Some of you may have listened to this part in comparison to BlackGates. The OS capacitors we have tested are not in the same league sonically, not to mention that there are no high voltage types. Our exporter has requested that we quickly express our opinions to the manufacturer since that could possibly change their minds. If you would like to have your say by writing us an e-mail we will pass it along to Japan in the hopes we can reverse this disaster. Will some other manufacturer step forward to make these parts? You have to consider that wishful thinking, so have your say and maybe we can reverse this thing. Oh yeah, I'd hedge my bets if I were you and order whatever BlackGates you want if that was something you were putting off! ( 05-25-04) Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiob Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 Im still rocken, Hank Jr. on the Rega, you guys are still goin... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted September 12, 2004 Author Share Posted September 12, 2004 But did you put your shoes on ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 ---------------- On 9/12/2004 9:59:16 AM mdeneen wrote: "...BlackGates still remain among the most highly regarded electrolytic capacitors in the WORLD.....I tend to think the opinions of many of the premier designers has more than a little weight." ============ No argument on that. My amusement was only in the proposed "diet pill style" explanation quoted by Dean. I have no axe to grind about the use or price or preference of parts anyone puts in an amplifier. If ya got it, spend it. If ya got more, spend that too. Money makes the hobby go 'round, and more makes it go 'round better and smoother. From time to time people assume I place no value in high-dollar parts. Totally false. I am, however skeptical of the technical CLAIMS ABOUT PARTS, which is an entirely different, and to me, amusing story. mdeneen ---------------- Mark, Thanks for making clear your disassociation in this case, of marketing and product quality. Unfortunately, all too often, marketing hype is part of the Sales game. As a result, there are those who try to write off most higher quality parts as only a marketing difference. This product in particular, (BlackGate), has the quality in abundance, and does not qualify as a "rip off" that was characterized by someone. Granted that this may not always be the case with all higher dollar cost parts, so I believe rhetorical generalizations should be avoided. Simply because one chooses not to pay the price, does not constitute a rip off by the manufacturer. Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted September 12, 2004 Author Share Posted September 12, 2004 Some people have no clue what there talking about and just dive in ! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2N3055 Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 I also agree that the Black Gate and other "high end" electrolytic capacitors are a total waste of money. Regardless of their cost, they are still electrolytic capacitors, and are constructed in the same basic manner as any other electrolytic capacitor. Electrolytics are mainly used for power supply filtering applications. It does not matter if they have lower ESR or dissipation ratings, their sole purpose is to filter ripple. A BG 50 uF capacitor and 50 uF Sprague Atom both have a reactance of 27 Ohms when coupled to a full-wave rectification circuit. The electrical values do not change because the BG cap is more expensive, the Sprague capacitor does it's job equally well, both caps in this example function identically. No audible change is to be detected. The BG costs 10 times more than the Atom, so why spend more? Because a manufacturer claims superior performance? But what performance? The Atom cap will likely out last the BG cap also. Personally, I'd much prefer to use a quality, time-tested brand like Sprague Atom. This high end parts crap didn't happen in the 60's when tubes were in wide spread use. The only reason why the Black Gates are selling now is because of a few gullable people who think if it costs more, it must be better. If these Black Gate capacitors exsisted in the 60's, the company would've went under charging prices like this. The only position in an amplifier where these BG's may be audible is in a bypass circuit, such as a tube cathode. But the possibility of being able to detect a sound difference between the BG and a conventional capacitor would be highly unlikely. The only real advantage of the lower ESR capacitor is at higher frequencies, and they are well above 20,000 Hz (the end of the audio spectrum) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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