psg Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Hi, I have a pair of 1973 La Scala which I got second-hand (from a cousin) in 1981. They sound great to me, but I figure after 31 years they might benefit from some maintenance. What is suggested? Can the crossover be visually inspected for damage? Should I dare to open up the bottom to inspect the woofers? Are Al Klappenberger's or DeanG's crossovers considered the best upgrade? (I don't even know what type of crossover I have in there but presumably Klipsch has changed the crossover since then.) As I understand, DeanG builds the same crossover circuit found in current Klipsch but with better quality component, and ALK crossovers are a different design altogether that result in an easier load for amplifiers (and a better sound). Is that correct? Which is better? Anything I should consider doing? These speakers are for keeps. I don't plan on ever selling them. Thanks, Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 You'll have to look at your boards. There will be a label on the front edge. It will be stamped with Type A, or Type AA. Actually, you can use either network with your Scalas. High SPL listeners prefer the AA over the A. Those with sane listening habits prefer the Type A. They are basically the same network with the exception that the Type AA has a tweeter protection circuit, and sonically speaking, has a tweeter that is 3db down compared to the Type A. Al offers the Replacement Type A, or ALK -- and this network offers a higher level of sophistication than found in either the A or AA. You can find more information at http://www.alkeng.com/ and by then clicking on the "Klipsch Corner" icon on the sidebar. I think Al is asking $550 for a pair, and now also offers them in kit form for about a couple hundred less. Nice network. Probably closest to the originals are the boards offered by Bob Crites (BEC). Bob uses parts that are near identical to the originals, and at a very reasonable price. John Warren builds an upscale version of the AA using Hovland film and foils, and I build them anyway you want them. I tend to shy away from the film and foils in these networks because I have an itchy feeling that it might bring things too far forward. OTOH, I'm sure the sound is about as clean as your going to get it. I build mine with Jensen Paper in Oils or Audience Auricaps. Clean, but a bit more laid back. I also tend to put more emphasis on cosmetics than I probably should. I think it has something to do with Mr. Cafaro and 8th grade art class. I suggest you buy a set from each of us and tell us what you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Dean, That was fair and balanced. Bob Crites Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Hey Peter, Yep, I think you are thinking right on checking out the crossovers. It is fairly likely that they have drifted off spec over the years. You might find it interesting to take a look at the woofers, but I'd sure think that they'd be fine. Dean has laid out some good crossover options from Klipsch forum folk. They are all good folk and offer a unique alternative on crossover solutions. Probably the least expensive solution would be to have Bob Crites test and rebuild (as necessary using your existing crossovers) to replace out of spec caps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scriven Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 ---------------- On 10/4/2004 8:44:30 PM DeanG wrote: ... I suggest you buy a set from each of us and tell us what you think. http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif"> ---------------- Very good Dean! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted October 5, 2004 Author Share Posted October 5, 2004 Thanks Dean for an excellent summary. I see it would be difficult to get a concensus on which is the best sounding option. Daddy Dee wrote: Yep, I think you are thinking right on checking out the crossovers. It is fairly likely that they have drifted off spec over the years. You might find it interesting to take a look at the woofers, but I'd sure think that they'd be fine. Thanks. I would think you'd be fine otherwise I think I'd hear it. I do augment the bass with a Hsu STF-3 sub, now it doesn't affect all music material. Dean has laid out some good crossover options from Klipsch forum folk. They are all good folk and offer a unique alternative on crossover solutions. Probably the least expensive solution would be to have Bob Crites test and rebuild (as necessary using your existing crossovers) to replace out of spec caps. That's interesting. I didn't know about Bob. I haven't researched this very thoroughly yet. But with that option, I'd be without my speakers for a long time. Ouch. On the other hand, I can't say I'm overflowing with cash and the idea of replacing only what's broken is appealing. I emailed Al K yesterday and he said a matched pair of crossovers was $500 (if I recall correctly) and a kit was $330 (plus shipping in both cases). I'm think $500 might be above my budget for this since the speakers do sound fine to me. But what do I know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 I suggest installing new internal wiring. It absolutely wouldn't hurt anything, and could only help. Plus, its the cheapest upgrade that you can do... DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted October 5, 2004 Author Share Posted October 5, 2004 Interesting idea D-man, thanks. Bob, I tried to email you but the messages bounced back. I'll try using this site... Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 Take em outside...spread em 20 feet apart... play phil collins song..."in the air tonight" at a medium to loud volume... Walk about 20 feet away... plant your seat there.. get a beer.. and when the drums kick in.. smile from ear to ear!!! That should "get the cobwebs" out, and make you smile.. Follow with classic tunes you grew up on, and smile when the neighbors come over and say, "Wow, it sounded like you had a live band right here.." The groups "Yes" also works as a great CD and "Peter Frampton" also "do you feel like we doo........." All Classics!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Well put, Indy! Music is ALWAYS better outdoors, when you take the reflections and room effects away. Plus you get the added benefit of the P!$$ your neighbor off factor! I second the clairty of Yes as test material! Also saw every tour from Topographic Oceans til current! Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 psg----You can just leave them alone and listen. They don't need maintainence, don't worry about it. IF you're Hell-bent on changing the sound I'd replace the mid horn, the actual horn itself, not the mid driver, with an EV SM-120A. My opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 "psg----You can just leave them alone and listen. They don't need maintainence, don't worry about it." Hmm, how do I say this nice? Oh, I know -- you're wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted October 16, 2004 Author Share Posted October 16, 2004 ---------------- On 10/16/2004 8:30:11 AM DeanG wrote: "psg----You can just leave them alone and listen. They don't need maintainence, don't worry about it." Hmm, how do I say this nice? Oh, I know -- you're wrong! ---------------- I haven't decided what to do yet, mostly because of all the good options people have given. The current crossovers are AA. A likely scenario will be either shipping them to Bob for inspection and fix-up. It would be good to know the sonic differences between Dean's and ALK's crossovers. I'm using an h/k 325; not high-end tubes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 I can only guess here about the differences, because I've never compared them head on. I've heard the ALKs, and I've heard my Type As -- but the ALKs were through a set of Klipschorns in a really large room, and my Type As were on a set of LaScalas in much smaller room. Both experiences were positive -- I enjoyed both listening sessions quite a bit. It's hard to be completely objective -- because so much of this is completely subjective. Regardless of who's building, or what is offered -- we all agree on one thing -- get rid of the old cans! This is probably an oversimplification, but if comparing the circuits straight up (Type A, Type AA, and ALKs), and taking parts quality out of the picture -- you can look at it like this: The Type A is 6db/octave, first order network, and there is no high pass circuit on the midrange. The squawker/horn itself determines the cutoff -- basically, it goes until it can't anymore (just naturally rolls off around 6Khz). There is quite a bit of overlap between the tweeter and midrange driver -- which is what you get with 1st order networks. Same deal with the Type AA, except the tweeter circuit is 12db/octave. It rolls off a little quicker, and there is less overlap between the midrange and tweeter -- resulting in less energy going to the tweeter. The net result sonically is that the tweeter is 3db down from where the Type A is. So, the Type A is just a bit hotter on top. PK whipped this one up with the advent of high powered solid state to save his tweeters. He also incorporated the use of diodes to protect against powerful transients and voltage spikes. People are pretty much evenly split on their preference here. Digging through the archives shows me that solid state users prefer the AA, and tubeheads like the A. The ALKs are a "replacement Type A", but actually have a bit in common with the AA as well. The tweeter circuit is 18db/octave, the midrange circuit is 12db/octave, and the woofer circuit is 6db/octave. So, less overlap at the top than either the A or AA, and the midrange cutoff is now determined by the circuit, as opposed to the natural cutoff of the horn. It also has a Zobel filter to smooth out the impedance -- which is great for tube amps. I'm not sure if it really offers any real advantages for most modern solid state gear -- Al may differ on this, I'm not sure. From talking to a lot of people -- trying to figure out what sounds the "best" is a lot like asking people what the best pizza is. You can forget about coming to any kind of definitive conclusion. Like most stuff associated with this insane hobby -- you just have to listen and decide for yourself! From a strictly sonic perspective, expect the As to sound more forward, with a bit of a 'hot' top end -- especially with solid state. The Type AAs give you a bit of more subdued top, and the ALKS bring the squawker down a little as well to be more "inline" acoustically with the tweeter. I've had some tell me the midrange sounds somewhat recessed in comparison to the A and AA, but when I heard Klipschorns with ALKs last year -- I didn't think so. I personally like the sound of all of them -- as long as the parts are good. I don't give a hoot what you use -- as long as it's not what you have now! If you are interested, I could build up a set of my AAs for you to try. Maybe Bob would be willing to send you a set of his -- and you can compare? I don't have the ego I used to have -- so if mine come back, no big deal. I'll just tell everyone you're deaf. Here is what my BOM looks like on my Type AAs. A few have told me they think my labor is a little high. Of course, they're not building them either. Once someone ends up with a set of my boards -- they understand. Klipsch Type AA with Auricaps (2) 2uF Auricap $32.00 (2) 13uF Auricap $46.00 (2) 3619 Autotransformer $53.00 (2) .25 Jantzen inductor $5.00 (2) 2.5mH ERSE inductor $24.00 (2) Terminal Strips $8.00 (2) Cedar Boards $6.00 Stainless hardware/wire $5.00 Shipping Charges and Taxes for parts $15.00 RETURN SHIPPING $20.00 LABOR $135.00 TOTAL $350.00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.4knee Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 Dean has nailed this on the head for you. You need to upgrade or replace your crossovers. I replaced my 20 year old Type AL's with ALKkit Type A's. The difference was amazing. I will admit a portion of the sound improvement came from replacing the older components with newer ones and the rest is attributed to Al K's design it is clearly better than the type ALs that were the original networks. I have always used SS amplifiers for what that is worth. But as Dean has detailed here the older components are likely out of spec. Which option (DeanG, AL K, BEC or John Warren) you choose is up to you. All of these people will deliver an excellent product. Good luck I am sure you will enjoy the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssh Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 Dean's right about the need to do something, & the impendent improvement you'll hear. I have three pairs of ALKs & heartily recommend them. I am also familiar with Bob's & Dean's work, and believe that, depending on your_ intended outcome, either will bring grins. Decide what your purpose is, what you can spend, suck-it-up, & do it. Crossover improvements are as discernable as equipment upgrades. Did I say that right? Do I hear an Amen, choir? SSH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 Amen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 I could add my own "Amen" also. I have been rebuilding customers Type AA crossovers today. Have a total of five on the bench right now. Three are completed and and the other two are in progress. Not a good cap amoungst the lot so far. Most are bad only in ESR. Pretty safe bet that if you are listening to original type A or AA crossovers, you are listening to bad caps. Bob Crites Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott0527 Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 ---------------- On 10/16/2004 4:06:19 PM BEC wrote: I could add my own "Amen" also. I have been rebuilding customers Type AA crossovers today. Have a total of five on the bench right now. Three are completed and and the other two are in progress. Not a good cap amoungst the lot so far. Most are bad only in ESR. Pretty safe bet that if you are listening to original type A or AA crossovers, you are listening to bad caps. Bob Crites ---------------- Can I ask how you can tell if a cap is bad? I read so much about bad caps and I rarely find them( of course I'm not sure what I'm looking for so no wonder I don't find them). I have a DVM that can read capacitance. Other than disconnecting the cap from the circuit and checking the value, are there other "checks" that could tell if it's good or bad? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 ---------------- On 10/16/2004 5:22:46 PM scott0527 wrote: ---------------- Can I ask how you can tell if a cap is bad? I read so much about bad caps and I rarely find them( of course I'm not sure what I'm looking for so no wonder I don't find them). I have a DVM that can read capacitance. Other than disconnecting the cap from the circuit and checking the value, are there other "checks" that could tell if it's good or bad? ---------------- These crossover caps seem almost always to go bad by having an increased ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance). You need a meter that can measure that. A new cap (say a 2 uF) will usually measure no more than a few hundredth of an ohm for ESR. The ones I use are typically about 0.02 ohms. All of the ones I changed out today were the original ones installed in the Type AA crossovers back in the 1970s. Most of them read somewhere around 0.8 ohms. Since there are two of these in series in the tweeter circuit in the type AA crossover, the effect is that of a series resistance of the sum of the ESRs of the two caps. That resistance does not belong there. Some of the power which should get to the tweeter is dissipated by this series resistance. Bob Crites Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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