Cornwalls and finding the right amplifier

[Glimmertwin]

Just replaced my Heresies with Cornwalls. I own several amplifiers and decided to try a few to see which I preferred with the Cornwalls. And it seemed to me it did make more of a difference when listening to the Cornwalls as opposed to the Heresies. I attribute this to the Cornwalls having a higher sensitivity and lower bass response.

Here is what I found:

Higher power + newer amplifier = worse performance

Lower power + older amplifier = better performance

The best sound, to me, came from my collection of 1967-1975 vintage solid-state amps.

Tubes versus solid state: my Fisher X101D tube amp sounded great on acoustic material, but as soon as I put on some Jimi Hendrix, something was lacking. The vintage solid states just took it up a notch and better than new solid state.

the worse the sound. Conversely, the lower the power, the better the sound. It takes less power to drive the Cornwalls and those first few watts are what count.

The newer the amplifier, the worse the sound. Stated differently, the older the amplifier the better the sound.

[NOSValves]

What condition is your Fisher in electrically speaking? 30 to 40 year old gear especially tube units really need to be freshened up to get the best out of them.

Craig

[RIklipsch]

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On 10/20/2004 6:15:33 AM Glimmertwin wrote:

Lower power + older amplifier = better performance

http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/images/smilies/1.gif">

The best sound, to me, came from my collection of 1967-1975 vintage solid-state amps.

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1965 - 1975 was the best era for solid-state, IMHO. After 1975, quality took a nose dive.

Which vintage solid-state units are you running?

One of the finest solid-state amplifiers I ever heard was the Sansui AU-9500.

It was produced in 1972, and was the top-of-the-line model for that year. It is rated 75W per channel. I am currently using the amplifier with horns (not Klipsch), and I don't get a hint of harshness from it. If you ask me, it is superior to most other SS units and some tube units.

There were several lower powered versions in the AU-9500 series, such as AU-8500, AU-6500, and AU-3500. Each of these has a unique sound that is very pleasing.

If you wanted to try one of these, you can pick up any of them on ebay for a song, they typically sell for under $200 and are some of the finest amplifiers you will ever hear. The AU-9500 is the rarest in the series, and also the highest powered. For your Cornwalls, I would recommend the AU-8500 and AU-6500. The AU-3500 is only 20W per channel and is a bit underpowered.

Sansui was a cut above Pioneer, Yamaha, Kenwood, and other Japanese manufacturers of the era.

Best regards,

Ryan

[RIklipsch]

Sansui AU-9500 photo gallery and comments from Sansui US:

http://www.sansui.us/AU-9500.htm

Have a look.

-Ryan

[Shock-Late]

geez, IMHO the main problem is not that new gear is bad, it's that you guys who prefer OLDER SS amps to newer ones are comparing old high-end amps to new entry level amps.

I own a few old SS amps, no one can even come close, to my ears at least, to a GOOD modern amp, even something quite cheap like a NAD. True, the old Sansui are not bad, but it's not quite as good. Or maybe it's just a matter of taste.

[D-MAN]

Mark, I'm with you.

As far as I'm concerned there is NO good reason to look for a "vintage" piece of 70's SS gear as it is your basic pile of brown and smelly stuff. One might as well go out in the back yard, pick up some cat crap and stick it in your ears - that'll pretty much sound the same.

Back in the 70's it was widely held that "then-old" tube gear was preferable to SS, practically regardless of the make. You just couldn't buy new tube gear then, as every manufacturer was doing the newer and cheaper SS. Believe me, we looked. New Dynaco tube gear (while not plentiful) was considered pretty exotic in my crowd at the time.

In the 70's, I had Kenwood, Crown, Phase Linear, and Marantz gear and they all sucked compared to the equivelent quality of product that is available today with perhaps the exception of MOST Japanese consumer products.

Audio has improved. There is no such thing as good "vintage" solid state IMO.

DM

[jt1stcav]

Well, I can say with confidence that the best sounding SS amplifiers driving my Cornwalls were my 1973 McIntosh MC250 and the 1976 McIntosh MC2100 power amps, hands down!

I've also used two Carvers; an '83 M-400t and a '92 TFM-35x, an '89 SAE A205, and a direct-coupled '91 McIntosh MC7200...They were all decent SS amps, but they just didn't do it for me as much as the older, lower-powered, autoformered MC250 and MC2100 power amps did. The 250/2100 both had a more lush, fuller, robust sound that seemed more natural to my ears; their midrange frequencies were the warmest I've ever encountered with SS designs!

Maybe because they were the earliest designed SS circuits I've used, or that they were both autoformered, or the least powerful (MC250 @ 50 WPC/MC2100 @ 100 WPC)...for whatever reason, these classic Macs made my unmodified '79 Cornwalls sound the most detailed and dynamic of any SS amp I've ever used! If it wasn't for the unforseen circumstances I had a few years back, I think I'd still be using the MC250, my favorite SS power amp of all time! Who knows, if I ever get tired of the lowly 8 WPC produced from my 300B SET amp, I just may find myself another MC250!

[D-MAN]

Oops, ain't arguing McIntosh here (that's what I run!).

I never had a Mc until the 90's. Out of my league in the 70's.

So I stand duly corrected.

DM

[edwinr]

With older solid state amps, the only thing I'd be concerned about is whether this amp has 'drifted' from it's original specifications due to age.

Cheap solid state sounds just that, cheap and brash. I guess too, so does cheap tube. I've heard more expensive solid state sounding, well... tube like. Examples I've heard recently that have impressed me come from manufacturers like Magnum Dynalab, McIntosh (Wow!), Mark Levinson (Wow! too - especially their No. 383), Copland, Krell, Audio Research, and the list goes on.

I read recently an article about Copland. This manufacturer claims that it matters not whether the particular amplifier is tube or solid state. It's all about the 'sound' that the designer is looking for or hoping to achieve with a particular circuit design. In fact the amplifier designer can make solid state sound tube like, and vice versa.

[Glimmertwin]

Right now I am using vintage Sansui amps ... alternating between the Sansui AU-7700 (you'll see this amp if you watch the movie "High Fidelity") and the older AU-555A. And it sounds great...!

You know what, a couple of years ago I took my Klipsch Heresies to a high-end audio shop to listen to a NAIM amplifier. I hooked up my Heresies to the NAIM amp, played some music and it (the sound) was horrible. Now, I have a friend with very new high-end speakers and very new NAIM amp and his system sounds great. So this forced me to question why?

Maybe it is the amp-speaker combination that is important. Maybe the Cornwalls (and all vintage Klipsch) just sound better with amplifiers made in the same time period. Maybe Paul Klipsch designed the speakers for that certain sound from those same contemporaneous amplifers?

If someone wants to recommend a new low-wattage ampflier ... I would be willing to give it a try.

What about NAD? Or even vintange NAD (circa 1981)?

Thanks!

[IB Slammin]

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On 10/20/2004 5:35:14 PM D-MAN wrote:

Mark, I'm with you.

As far as I'm concerned there is NO good reason to look for a "vintage" piece of 70's SS gear as it is your basic pile of brown and smelly stuff. One might as well go out in the back yard, pick up some cat crap and stick it in your ears - that'll pretty much sound the same.

Back in the 70's it was widely held that "then-old" tube gear was preferable to SS, practically regardless of the make. You just couldn't buy new tube gear then, as every manufacturer was doing the newer and cheaper SS. Believe me, we looked. New Dynaco tube gear (while not plentiful) was considered pretty exotic in my crowd at the time.

In the 70's, I had Kenwood, Crown, Phase Linear, and Marantz gear and they all sucked compared to the equivelent quality of product that is available today with perhaps the exception of MOST Japanese consumer products.

Audio has improved. There is no such thing as good "vintage" solid state IMO.

DM

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LMAO, about your(and Marks) comments! Went thru the Crown-Phase Linear gutless crap also. In the 70's I would never even consider a Jap SS amp. Had Saul M's first SS (1968) mono-blocks(mod-14&15) and thought that I was living large. Sansui? (sp?) Are you kidding me? That was something to get a hot deal on at a PX far, far away.

Don't get me wrong. I still use the Jap 1980's Luxman M-117 times 2 in BTL mode with CW's. Slame the CW bottom with 420wpc of tube warmth.

Your turn now. Cut me up.

TC

[garymd]

I think there was good stuff in the 70s as well as now. There was also crap then as well as now. Some of the mid-late 70s high-end Jap stuff was actually pretty good and didn't break the bank.

[3dzapper]

D-man, I followed your advice and now the wife won't let me get in bed! How do I get this stuff out????

The last SS amp I bought was a Yamaha RX-V1 and it sounded like this gunk D-man put in my ears on the Khorns. I wound up using my Nikko Alpha from the Yammies pre-outs. The yammy sounds good on the less efficient Heresy's go figure. The key I believe is the Nikko runs in class A at low power.

That said, a rebuilt Scott 299C sounded better than any SS on the Horns and my current set-up is supurb IMO.

It's not the power, many are tickled pink with 3.5 watts on Corns, it is the quality of that first watt to two watts that counts. If you prefer SS, I would recommend something class A with FET output transistors. Like the Monarchy SM-70 or Pro (25WPC).

[Guest Anonymous]

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On 10/20/2004 3:36:00 PM mdeneen wrote:

For the life of me I can't recall many decent sounding SS amplifiers built before maybe 1973. What amps are you all referring to?

Mark, the GAS Ampzilla, and son of ampzilla were GREAT, are GREAT, and will be GREAT IMHO.

And built in the good ole US of A

[heresy2guy]

A Harman Kardon 430 or 730 receiver from the mid/late 70s will make your Cornwalls sing their hearts out, and it'll do it for around 100 bucks or so. They make my Heresy IIs sound spectacular.

I've had my Heresy IIs hooked up to a Proton receiver and an NAD integrated amp before and liked the sound very much. Proton and NAD were very close in their parts and their sound and both gave insane dynamic headroom (like 6-7dBs) which meant they put out 4 times their rated power during musical peaks. My Proton sounded a bit better then the NAD to me...a bit more bass and crisper highs.

I think the HK 430 takes the cake though. Better then the late 80s Proton and late 80s NAD and much much much much better then a cheap y2k Technics receiver I bought. The Technics made my Heresys sound like garbage. So bad in fact, that if I was somehow forced into having to keep and having to use the Technics, I'd get rid of my Heresys in a heartbeat and look for something else. That's how bad that particular combo sounded to me. There was no bass at all, the highs were practically non existant, and the midrange seemed really muddy.

When I got my HK 430, it not only brought my Heresys back to life, it took them to another level, sonically speaking. I think it can do similar things for your Cornwalls.

If you buy one, just clean the pots really good with some contact cleaner from rat shack and let them dry. That'll gid rid of any potential static issues. You can literally hear the difference when you do this.

Good luck.

[heresy2guy]

It was Andy who recommended this unit to me, as he did to several other forum members, so he gets the credit with finding this inexpensive little gem, which puts out only 25wpc by the way, and was made in Japan.

Do a search on two-channel forum for Harman Kardon 430 or h/k 430 or hk 430 and see what you come up with. Most people who bought one really liked it and considered it a steal given its price.

Again, good luck.

[texas42]

My favorite vintage (or maybe 'near vintage'?) amp is still the B&K ST 140. Looks great, works great, and SOUNDS great with every speaker I've ever heard it with. I got rid of mine a dozen years ago and always regretted it. Until, of course, I found another one which I will never let go. It's currently powering a pair of KEF Reference 105 Mk IIs, in a secondary system. Other great amps from the 80s that can be had on the cheap would be the Adcom 555 (maybe a bit too harsh with Klipsch though), NAD 2200PE (power envelope design with LOTS of dynamic headroom) and Sumo Andromeda. I'm sure there are others but the 80s did have some very good solid state amps. I enjoy the vintage stuff from the 70s too, but mainly receivers which I cut my teeth on and for reasons other than sonic. Just my two cents...

[D-MAN]

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On 10/20/2004 10:23:42 PM 3dzapper wrote:

The last SS amp I bought was a Yamaha RX-V1 and it sounded like this gunk D-man put in my ears on the Khorns.

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Rick, sheesh, of all the times to actually take my advice, AND YOU DECIDE THAT THIS IS THE ONE TO TAKE!!

DM

[RIklipsch]

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On 10/20/2004 3:36:00 PM mdeneen wrote:

For the life of me I can't recall many decent sounding SS amplifiers built before maybe 1973. What amps are you all referring to?

The Threshold 400 circa 1974 was a clear breakthrough winner. The PL400 was at least very listenable, as was the Marantz 250. The Electrocompaniet circa 1975 was great, as was the NAIM. But Pioneer? Sansui? Dynaco? HK? Scott? They are given due credit for actually forcing a RETURN to tubes which had been abandoned with the advent of the bipolar power transistor.

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PL400? The only thing that amplifier is good for is brute power

I had one blow up in my face, it was quite a show. The things are terribly unstable, and when they do decide to go, they put on one hell of a show! I don't know what you see (hear) in the PL400, it's just a quasi-complementary amplifier, primitive to other 70's "innovations".

1970's were very important to the development of solid-state circuitry. Prior to about 1969, bipolar transistors were basically used in tube circuits, and performed horribly. The early H.H. Scott and Sherwood "transistorized" receivers come to mind, utterly horrible with brittle sound.

Many Japanese companies (like Sansui) built state-of-the-art amplifiers and receivers, I especially like the Sansui AU series of integrated amplifiers. The lower powered models do seem to perform better, have you tried them? The monster receivers like Sansui 9090-DB and Pioneer SX-1050 do sound bad at low volumes, with immense distortion. In my opinion, the products made prior to the "wattage wars" were the best. With high wattage, there is a definite price to pay, and that price is sound quality and distortion factors.

There were a fair amount of lower powered receivers and amplifiers in the early 1970's, and to me, they exceed the performance of most anything being produced today.

I got to hear a Pioneer SX-990 today through horns (990 is rated 28W/Ch), the sound was very nice, not too harsh for me. My SX-1050 (100W/Ch), sounds like crap through the horns. I think power output and output transistor operation characteristic curves, and the range that the transistors are operated in play a large role in sound quality.

-Ryan