minima Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 Hi everybody I write from Italy It's true that Paul Klipsch have used a pp 2a3 class A no feedback amplifier to set his speakers? It's better to use similar amps or a 300b se? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 Hi Minima, Paul W. Klipsch did use a push-pull 10-12 Watt amp with the 2A3 tube many decades ago. Then he went to much more powerful tube amps and then to solid state. It's best to use whatever you personally like most and not be concerned with what Klipsch used, except for fun and human interest. I'd advise what a Klipsch engineer recommends here: Use an amp that has 5 times the amount of power you think you'll ever need. That way you have headroom and won't need to worry about compressing and clipping the music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dflip Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 Use the search window at the top and chose the 2 channel audio forum, type in SET vs. PP (or push pull) and you will get a couple of hundred responses. It usually starts a flame war around here, so be careful. Your choice of speakers will also influence your decision. Which Klipsch speakers and what efficiency are you talking about? You could almost make the case that what will drive a K-horn/LaScalla (I stand corrected) (104 db)(1.5 - 4W), can be quadrupled for a Cornwall (98db) and doubled again for a Heresy (95 db). Now you can always have more power than you actually need. The size of room and type of music will also play a factor in what type of amp you should choose. We have people here with 60 W tube amps with a pair of K-horns and 2.5 W SET amps with Cornwalls, so there is no definitive answer. My suggestion, read away and then come back with further questions. All answers that come from this forum have the bias and beliefs of the person who wrote it (good, bad or otherwise). Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 Hi Minima, Welcome to the forum. One's preference for SET or PP is both personal and subjective. Most likely depends on listening levels and preferred musical genres, IMO. My personal preference is for SET, but this may be a minority view. In my observation, people who love SET, really love it and find PP also acceptable and sometimes even have a PP amp to put in service when desired. For folks that prefer PP all the time, their preference is equally strong and often express strong dissatisfaction with the SET typology. Personally, I would love to add a 2A3 PP to my system, but have no plans for that now. It is indeed cool to contemplate a Klipsch system with this amplification. The sound of 2A3 is so sweet to me, that I believe I'd prefer a 2A3 PP to a 300B SET. Have noticed a recent post on the forum for a 2A3 PP DIY project by a highly regarded designer and member of this forum. Another excellent candidate would be the Wright Mono-10's in the 2A3 PP category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 You could almost make the case that what will drive a K-horn (104 db)(1.5 - 4W) can be doubled for a LaScalla (101 db) The La Scala has ther same efficiency rating as the Klipschorn, just cuts off higher in the bass (45 at -5dB; 53 at -3dB). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 Welcome to the forum, minima. Hope your stay here is an enjoyable one as it is for all of us! I have used many types of amplifiers with my 98.5dB efficient Cornwalls, from such powerful solid-state amps as the 250 watt Carver TFM-35x and 200 watt McIntosh MC7200, to the 100 watt McIntosh MC2100 and 50 watt McIntosh MC250 (my favorite SS amp), to the 40 watt JoLida Model JD 202a EL34-based PP tube amp, to a 12 watt per side Dared VP-16 6V6-based PP integrated tube amp, etc. Now my present amp of choice is a mere 8 watt per channel 300B-driven, class-A, zero feedback, SET power amp, the BEZ Model T3B. All these various stereo amplifiers, whether they're PP, SET, or SS, have all performed flawlessly with my Cornwalls at different volume levels, with all types of music (from classic rock, jazz, and blues, to classical orchestral, chamber, vocal, and pipe organ). Good luck in your quest for good amplification. Do you presently own Klipsch loudspeakers? If so, what model? With what type of power amplifier do you use? If you require assistance in choosing the right power for a particular Klipsch model, please tell us what you're using so we can better help you in your selection. As you can see, there are many choices that can be made, and far more to choose from that haven't been mentioned yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piranha Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 Sorry to hijack the thread. Hey jt1stcav, what did you think about the Carver TFM-35X driving your Corns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Not bad, really. The midrange seemed just a tad thin sounding, which is one reason why I switched to McIntosh. But still a decent performer that never gave me a single problem the entire 11 years I owned it, and sounded even better (fuller to my ears) with my JBL L112s and Magnepan MGLR1s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 You take great pictures, Jim! Everything I have seen of yours, from the preamp, the MCs, the new SETs -- all of them have great clarity and (let me sound like an art teacher, here ...) good sense of composition. That's important! How are you liking the new GZ37s? Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Hi, Minima -- Welcome aboard! Even amps with an output as low as little over a watt (with a few other requisites in place)can sound good with La Scalas. I don't think I would use such low output with Cornwalls or virtually anything else with a lower efficiency rating than Belles, LSs, or Klipschorns. Good luck, there's much from which to choose! Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Hi, minima. Welcome to the forum. Whether it's SET or PP, high or low output, I think it's of primary importance that the amplifier is of good design and construction. The second consideration is whether you like the sound of the amplifier in question. The only true way to establish this is to listen for yourself with the speakers of your choice. I know though, that more experienced hi-fi enthusiasts have purchased amplifiers sight and sound unseen. They take a risk too, that the sound may not be what they expect. The other thing to consider is the size of your room and how loud you like to listen. If you are like me, and listening is conducted at high levels in a large room, then more power may be required of your amplifier. My current amplifier is a push pull tube design with about 20ish watts per channel output. This drives my Klipschorns to reasonably high levels - I've measured peaks of 105 db from a distance of 3 metres with only a little distortion starting to creep in. Ideally I would prefer a more robust amplifier but that will have to wait. Listening levels are a very individual thing - what may seem loud to one person, may be too soft for another. But I agree with Eric, it is very surprising just how good the Klipschorns CAN sound with just a few watts. That's why I believe the first consideration is to concentrate on quality watts first, then work out how many quality watts you might need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 "That's why I believe the first consideration is to concentrate on quality watts first, then work out how many quality watts you might need." As it relates to me, I believe "power" to be an issue directly related to quality. Insufficient power to meet my listening requirements leaves me cold and unsatisfied. I felt 3.5 watts simply bridled my Klipschorns, restraining the dynamics, speed, and hair trigger transients they are know for. In fact, I thought the sound had more in common with what I hear from small direct radiators. I was due for an over the top post -- so cut me some slack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 ---------------- On 10/25/2004 6:58:56 AM DeanG wrote: As it relates to me , I believe "power" to be an issue directly related to quality. Insufficient power to meet my listening requirements leaves me cold and unsatisfied. I felt 3.5 watts simply bridled my Klipschorns, restraining the dynamics, speed, and hair trigger transients they are know for. In fact, I thought the sound had more in common with what I hear from small direct radiators. I was due for an over the top post -- so cut me some slack. ---------------- Very snappy, Dean, for so early in the morning! So are you suggesting that 3.5 watts could be compared with the bubbles in a champagne bottle, tickling your nose, but nothing compared with taking the big swig... EDIT: Dean, I re-read my post. Just so you know, I meant 'snappy' as meaning, sharp, quick witted, on-the-ball. When I read it later I thought someone may take it the wrong way. Kind regards, Edwin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Often, the set vs pp, or simply discussion of pp ends up involving power. But that's not all there is to it. Other important considerations for either design are things like whether or not they operate in Class-A mode only. There is also the question of whether or not to use feedback, and how much. SET may use traditional or parafeed output. Both types may or may not use "ultrapath" caps to keep audio out of the power supply caps. An all class-A, no feedback, pp design is interesting when compared to all class-A, no feedback SET, because they are so similar in that the pp is simply 2 SETs back to back. The pp version also has a more optimized output transformer because it maintains no bias magnetic flux. To do this with SET requires parafeed construction. pp has two advantages, regardless of the configuration: 1) cancellation of supply noise, 2) supression of even harmonic distortion. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minima Posted October 25, 2004 Author Share Posted October 25, 2004 Hi jt1stcav I have a pair of Tangent 400 (97dB/mt ) with a kenwood 100w/ch amps. I like blues , jazz and soft rock , my room is 3 x 8 mt. I listen to a medium level, not too loud and i want to build my dyi SET amps beacause is too simple than a PP. I like sweet and liquid music , not aggressive into the mid/ high frequency. Thanks everybody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotbuck Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Greetings, I've found that amp/speaker mating is an art in itself. With my KG-4's (94 dB sensitivity), I've found that my 10wpc Audio Note SET was way underpowered yet gorgeous sounding; a 25wpc HK-430 was still underpowered (yet nice sounding); a 220wpc class A QED 440 was lovely but was too much amp for the speakers (I couldn't turn it up enough to really let it "cook" before the volume levels threatened to take the fillings out of my teeth!); and a 100wpc Marantz PM-74D was nicely powered for the speakers but didn't have a good sonic match (a little too dark...) I've got a 40wpc HK-730 in transit to try with the KG-4's, and I'll be trading in the Marantz PM-74D with an old pair of A/D/S L-1290 speakers at the local stereo shop (amp and speakers mate very nicely with this combination). Currently the monster QED is mated to a pair of AR-9's which I gave to my aunt (at 80 she's still a music freak God bless her!); with the 88dB AR-9's the amp's 220 watts are put to very good use. So..... I don't know whether you can ever say, "this is better than that" without first trying it with your own system. Too many "x-factor" variables to contend with. The combination that makes you go, "Aaaahhhhh!" and puts a big smile on your face will be the right system - whatever that ends up being! I suspect that the best advice I can give is to go to a reputable dealer who will let you try things at home; audition with an open mind, and you'll come to know what works best for you. Hope this helps... Take care, Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 "The combination that makes you go, "Aaaahhhhh!" and puts a big smile on your face will be the right system - whatever that ends up being!" This evaluation is so simple, and in my opinion, so correct. It should have to do with what sounds best to YOU, not whether it supports any particular circuit design. Leo brought up the very good point of class of amplification and feedback. I have to say that the SE OTL (sorry to bring that up yet again)from Transcendent Sound, all 1.5 watts of it, as well as with (and partly because of) its small amount of feedback, is a superb sounding amplifier. To my ears, that amp sounds more like 5 watts! Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 Scott.... Great post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 Erik, thanks. And you've got mail... You've got very sensitive loudspeakers, minima, so I think you'd do very well with a DIY SET kit. I'm not familiar with all that's out there, but many forum members here also build SET and PP kits for themselves and for others. These experts hopefully will chime in and make some recommendations as to the best kits that should work well within your budget and musical tastes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 Minima: There are a number SET kits out there, but we have had a recent posting of what to me looks like an outstanding PP kit using triodes. In fact, it is as easier, or even more straightforward than some SET kits with which I'm familiar. The SE OTL from Trasncendent sound is an example of one possibility, but I would not recommend it for use with anything less than Klipschorns or LaScalas. However, it is quite a bit more complicated than most other SET amp kits available. There are just many more parts involved. I can suggest some others, but you might have a look at the DIY PP 2A3 post on the previous page of this particular forum. I will go and bump back into the present! Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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