yromj Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Here's a link to a review of the PB10-ISD written by a member of the S&V forum. Check it out. It's an awesome sub for the money, but it's not perfect either. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omega3002 Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 I found the decay test to be interesting. Its a shame SVS couldn't include internal bracing. With so many pb10s likely to be sold would an internal bracing mod become popular? Probably not but for the few who want to try to get the maximum out of this sub its certainly worth the effort. Are all Klipsch sub cabinets designed with internal bracing or do some not include it? If SVS sells this new woofer separately maybe someone can make their own cabinet and compare it to the pb10. That would be interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpg Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 I don't think all Klipsch subs are braced... but probably the newer ones are. The RSW series probably are, and the RW's might be. I opened up my KSW-12 and found no bracing. Only a little board glued along the inside of each seam, not really bracing. My guess is that with some bracing, the KSW-12 could sound pretty good as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAS Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Wow. He compared the little $429 PB10 to his Sunfire and the Sunfire wasn't far superb (at triple the price). I'd say that's one heck of a four hundred dollar sub. That'll be a great selling piece me thinks. It was kind of weird that he was dissapointed in factors that he compared with a sub costing 3 times as much. Not really a fair comparison to begin with. That's like comparing an RW-10 to an RSW-15. At triple the cost, of course they are going to have differences (but not great ones according to the above). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 CAS, Get your head outta your sub,what are you talking about.The Sunfire is a fraction of the SVS's size,and look at the response curve.Even as tiny as it is it bests with ease an SVS equipped with a serious driver(of the same size) in an optimal vented box.Unlike the minuscule box the Sunfire woofer works in. Sure it retails for MORE,you can find them much cheaper than retail.I paid my Mrk II $1800 Canadian!With taxes,and no shipping req. delivered by the store. SO for the volume used,the Sunfire has no peer.It costs more,yes but my bass is better. HE HE And the SIgnature can compete agaisnt the Plus and Ultra equipped SVS's with little problems.Save for the last few Hz a large sub will descend deeper. Yes great review and I am happy they included the Sunfire Mark II.Shows a tiny box can beat a much larger one HE HE Make no mistake I agree this new SVS is an awesome product,for the price its a WINNER. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Get your head outta your sub, <...> Yes great review and I am happy they included the Sunfire Mark II. Shows a tiny box can beat a much larger one. At 3 times the price! Which is precisely what CAS and others are saying! You seem to be implying that people shop by size, and not by price. Strange that most retail web site have a sort-by-price option but not a sort-by-size option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Im sure 3 pb10's would lay waste a sunfire sig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Funny you need multiple larger subs to beat a tiny Sunfire! LOL Let Sunfire come out with a sub as large as one PB10 and it will lay waste to three PB12's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 SVS drivers only need 500 watts to perform. How many watts does your sunfire have again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAS Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 ---------------- On 10/28/2004 7:58:05 PM TheEAR wrote: Funny you need multiple larger subs to beat a tiny Sunfire! LOL Let Sunfire come out with a sub as large as one PB10 and it will lay waste to three PB12's. ---------------- Actually Kyle, the PB10 has only a 300W amp compared the the MKII's 2700 watts (that's 9 times the rms power!). Ear: Funny you say that, because if the same proportional amount of money, research, time and equipment were put into a Sunfire sub as big as a PB12 then it would probably have to be powered by a small nuclear power plant and cost as much as a Mercedes. I can build an iron enclosure as big as a shoebox, stick a 200 lb resistor in it, power it with 100,000 watts and I'd probably be able to shake the house down, too. Anyway, my head isn't up my sub. I never said the Sunfire wasn't the better sub...but the fact that the PB10 is even remotely comperable to it at 1/3 the price is fantastic. I don't think too many people care about making their subs fit in the palm of their hand. I'll shed the extra few inches of room and save myself more than $1000. Not trying to get into a pissing match...just making observations and getting frustrated again when the EAR idiot again thinks he can talk to me like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpg Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Everyone is getting lost in size and power ratings here, it seems... The smaller size will pretty much allow tighter, more controlled bass even with less bracing. Smaller boxes actually don't need bracing because their sides can't flex much anyway. 3 SVS would best a Sunfire in SPL and extension, but my guess would be that the quality of bass would not be half the single Subfire even still. Sure, it takes the Sunfire 3x the power to do the same SPL... but, sound quality is what everyone is going for there. SPL and "home theater bass" are what SVS are targeted at. Both subs are too expensive for what they are, IMO. That is too much for a 10" that is mostly only good for home theater- based on the tests done in that review, it is not as much of a musical sub. I wouldn't pay that much for a Velo/Sunfire either. I don't have that kind of spare money right now... I built the 15" sub I have now for just the cost of the driver, and I'm sure it bests the SVS's pretty easily. The Ultra's might have it there... but it is capable of nearly 3" peak-to-peak with a higher power handling that the SVS. Who knows... I want more to compare to- more to listen to. My town has nothing. very depressing.... we have nothing hifi here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 CAS, get your facts before posting... You posted the SVS amp is 300W and the Sunfire is 2700W,it is not the case.If you had a better view of facts you would know the SVS amp is rated at 300W RMS and the Sunfire amp can drive a load of 2.7Ohms for a vshort period of time,in actual use the Sunfire amp does not even reach a 270W output. You want more info,just write to Bob Carver himself So your 300W to 2700W comparo holds no real ground,compare peaks with peaks and continous RMS with continous RMS. I am surprised you even made this weak and worthless comparo! If you call the said EAR an idiot let me return the favor,there is also a CAS idiot who likes to compare actual RMS amp output with a spec based on peaks that are almost never reached. In actual use the Sunfire uses 1/10th of the 2700W,even on peaks! READ BOB CARVER's own manuals.They are simple and easy I am not your little forum poster who you can walk over,bud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 ---------------- On 10/28/2004 9:49:35 PM tpg wrote: Everyone is getting lost in size and power ratings here, it seems... The smaller size will pretty much allow tighter, more controlled bass even with less bracing. Smaller boxes actually don't need bracing because their sides can't flex much anyway. 3 SVS would best a Sunfire in SPL and extension, but my guess would be that the quality of bass would not be half the single Subfire even still. Sure, it takes the Sunfire 3x the power to do the same SPL... but, sound quality is what everyone is going for there. SPL and "home theater bass" are what SVS are targeted at. Both subs are too expensive for what they are, IMO. That is too much for a 10" that is mostly only good for home theater- based on the tests done in that review, it is not as much of a musical sub. I wouldn't pay that much for a Velo/Sunfire either. I don't have that kind of spare money right now... I built the 15" sub I have now for just the cost of the driver, and I'm sure it bests the SVS's pretty easily. The Ultra's might have it there... but it is capable of nearly 3" peak-to-peak with a higher power handling that the SVS. Who knows... I want more to compare to- more to listen to. My town has nothing. very depressing.... we have nothing hifi here. ---------------- TPG, Ok I see where you want this to go but... SVS bass,should I say sub bass is of no lesser quality.The cabinet bracing(or lack of)does in no audible way affect the frequency range it was designed to reproduce.We are talking a sub atht will worl 99.9% of the time below 80Hz. The TC Sounds woofer has a very good motor to come mass ratio and is as fast as it needs.The cabinet is plenty inert for the designated use.The sub being port vented the woofer does not need high wattage as it would in a smallish sealed box,plus EQ use being mild(a guesstimate).All amp power goes towards max output. And again back to sound quality ... Both the Sunfire and SVS are in no way boomy and most of the time crossed over low.No boom from eigher,the Sunfire has an advantage because the PR will never be plagued by port noise.Even if the ports are flared there is minor turbulence,inaudible to most at high SPL and when the sub plays around the port tuning freq. My point was the Sunfire is far from the 2700W some thing it needs,in fact the amp may hit 270W in heavy use. And for the last time the Sunfire's cklaim of 2700W is for a short period of time into a resistive load(of the same value as the woofer's crossover).As no woofer made can eat 2700RMS and survive long. Now imagine Sunfire's amp is 100% efficient(it is IMPOSSIBLE so to speak)and it does deliver the juice to a woofer capable of taking 2.7KW.It will take much more than the mere 5AMP fuse can let pass(remember it waorks with 110V.You do not make 2.7KW apear out of thing air from an input of 550W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpg Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Ear- What you just posted is essentially what I meant. lol Whether you believe that or not... I have a very loud distraction going on over here at my house... Got the Van Halen Live Without a Net DVD... so that is on behind me. I cannot think straight with the noise going on. Though I am enjoying jamming to that... I haven't seen this video in probably 5-10 years. I didn't mean to say that SVS was boomy, just not as refined as a Sunfire. I also understand the RMS thing... my sub can take 1000W, amp can give 1100W with peaks into the several kW. But, under heavy playing, it never hits above 100W... usually only around 50W. EDIT: Yes... the TC Sounds woofers are pretty hefty. If I had to guess, I'd say that TC was the company that made the Blueprint driver that I have. Same high Xmax and power figures... and higher Fs. All TC woofers seem to have a higher Fs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAS Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 ---------------- On 10/28/2004 9:57:07 PM TheEAR wrote: CAS, get your facts before posting... So your 300W to 2700W comparo holds no real ground,compare peaks with peaks and continous RMS with continous RMS. I am surprised you even made this weak and worthless comparo! src='http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/images/smilies/10.gif'] ---------------- Sorry mr EAR. I just got the specs from the sunfire website...I was assuming 2700 was rms since only lame mass marketed subs and amps use that "if lightening struck it" peak dynamic measurement anymore. Don't give me that "get your facts straight" attitude. I always start conversations friendly and polite, then you have to stick your nose in and change it to egotistic and rude. I'm from the midwest and wasn't raised that way. I don't hate anybody, but the least I can say is that when somebody talks to me this way in person unprovoked, they're soon knee deep in their own teeth. In any case, you can keep your Sunfire, I can keep my Klipsch and SVS, everyone else can keep what they've got and be happy with it until we all feel the upgrade itch. Here's ending on a happy note. May we all dispute, agree and everything in between with a smile! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpg Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 ---------------- On 10/28/2004 10:53:08 PM CAS wrote: Here's ending on a happy note. May we all dispute, agree and everything in between with a smile! ---------------- Agreed... I try not to take things personally... unless I feel that another poster is trying to direct something at me and make me look bad or stupid. I am kind of defensive sometimes. heh Usually when I am feeling kind of down or really tired. Audio is so opinionated and personalized... No one will ever totally agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Peel Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 ---------------- On 10/28/2004 9:49:35 PM tpg wrote: Both subs are too expensive for what they are, IMO. That is too much for a 10" that is mostly only good for home theater- based on the tests done in that review, it is not as much of a musical sub. ---------------- Just so you know, I have heard the PB10 in person, and we demoed a couple live concert DVD's, "The Blue Man Group" and "Godsmack", and this PB10 had NO problems with the extrememly fast drum kicks, beats, etc. It is a marvel of a sub for that price, where you can just go buy one and plug it in, no need to DIY, etc. Not saying DIY is a bad thing, it's just 99% of people out there couldn't build a good sub if they wanted to, so they have to buy SVS, Klipsch, Sunfire, etc. It's definitely a musical sub in my opinion. Don't listen to everything people say about musical subs, that's such a vage and hard thing to talk about, but the PB10 is VERY capable of handling anything you throw at it. It held it's own against the PB12-Ultra/2 as well, couldn't belt out the SPL and dig as deep, but for what it is, $400 is a bargain, nothing out there in that price range, EXCLUDING DIY can touch it. No flame or offense to anyone or any company Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpg Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 This is true... it does probably best anything in its price range. It is quieter in my room now... and I can think again. Van Halen has a lot of loud kick drum stuff going on, and my sub is about two feet from me when I am on the comp listening to music. So... all my thoughts were a little skewed earlier with all that going on. Nothing I wrote earlier made much sense. heh Sorry about that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 "I was assuming 2700 was rms since only lame mass marketed subs and amps use that "if lightening struck it" peak dynamic measurement anymore." A sub that can hold its own with much larger subs from respected companies.Lame,far from it. The Sunfire Mark II(now Mark IV) and Sig amps CAN deliver 2700W RMS given proper heatsinks and supplied with the current it needs from the outlet.Its not "if lightening strikes" PMPO amp.These amps sail most of the time below 1/10th of thier full power capabilities.And this is good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcjago Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 You know, one thing I question on that review is his FR chart. It goes from 90db at 80hz to 87db at 20hz. The Sunfire on the other hand is perfectly flat from 80hz to 20hz. Thus, he concludes that the Sunfire is superior in FR. If you look at Ed's review, however, the PB10 is perfectly flat from 80hz to 20hz. Plus Ed did his test at 105db, while this review is only at 90db. http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/images/svs-pb10-isd-fr2m.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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