Subs

[Daddy Dee]

Dean,

I've been looking at some Quad II's on Ebay. Mostly out of curiosity and not in the market to buy. having heard them on my Khorns, they were impressive indeed.

I think I'm tracking on your take of the power needed for low end over against the smoothness of the mid and high freq's. Makes sense. Also, have read enough threads on the ins and outs of bi-amping to know that I don't want to take that on as a project. But, in theory anyway, would bi-amping address the issues you raise? How much slam comes in the mids? If there's much musical material there, which when properly amped gets pleasing slam response, then bi-amping the LF would be limited in it's potential "improvement".

[garymd]

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On 11/21/2004 6:54:56 PM Erik Mandaville wrote:

I do not want a heavy cube vibrating away in some corner, exciting the room in all sorts of unpleasant ways. I want to hear deep organ, contra bassoon, and double bass notes a bit more than I do right now -- and that's it! I already get great impact from percussion.

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Erik,

There's a big difference between what a sub does for music and what it does for HT. Using the RSW12 with my cornwalls, there are no unwanted rattles or shakes with music and although it's in a corner, it's very hard, if not impossible, to tell where it is 90% of the time. Maybe that's due to the type of bass the corns already provide and would be different with the khorns. I'm hoping not. I don't use the khorns for tv speakers so I plan to put the sub between them just in case.

[Parrot]

Here's a DIY sub that might be right up your alley, Erik:

http://www.royaldevice.com/custom.htm#THE%20REAL%20TOTAL%20HORN

[analogman]

Paul Parrot wrote:

If the recording is thin, then the low end has been shaved off, and a sub isn't going to be doing anything at all. You'd get better results with a good equalizer, provided there is a little info in the frequencies you want to boost.

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Paul Parrot,

I think you may be on to something there

Regards,

Analogman

[seti]

When I purchased my belle's the guy I bought from also had a custom made isobaric passive sub built to match that I couldn't leave behind. It was powered by a 200watt nad amp w/crossover and the belles were powered by some Cary 300b's. The sub was not at all like a ht sub in fact you couldn't tell where the bass was coming from. We listened to a couple tunes a couple times with the sub and then without the sub. The difference was subtle but I could when the sub wasn't on. It was not at all boomy which suprised me. I can't wait to get a crossover and amp for my sub. So many things to buy so little money lol....

[Deang]

My false corners are great, but I'm surely not getting the slam I'm sure some solid state users are getting. Still, the bass is tight, well defined, and musical. It's punchy yet full bodied, with good rythm and pace. It's not a chest slamming kind of bass, which is fine by me because I'm not really into that kind of thing. The bass from my Klipschorns sounds real to me, and I just don't see a sub augmenting things without mucking up the signature. It would take a serious setup, with a good crossover like the one from HSU -- or better yet -- a tubed unit from Marchland.

Cheating on the quality of the crossover creates a dilemma for users of tube gear: Do you use the high pass section of the sub's crossover for the best integration, or run the sub standalone just using the low pass part of the network? I don't relish the idea of running the full range signal into the sub first before it gets to the amps, so the latter is the way to go -- but it's a setup nightmare. Been there done that, and with the RF-7's, I never could get it to sound right -- forget it.

Biamping would be really cool, but really expensive -- which is the main thing that holds me back from trying it. Again -- no point in doing it from my point of view unless you have a tubed crossover unit. What? We fight and scratch to get the highs and mids as liquid and smooth as possible, just to turn around and run everything through transistors? I really don't want to go there either. I'm sure the three-way tubed crossover from Marchland and a good solid state amp for the bottom would probably be sonic bliss -- but pricey to be sure. Crossover points and slopes were just posted by DJK around here somewhere -- but I can't remember where.

With all that out of the way, you SET users are at a bit of an advantage though -- since you don't typically listen at 95db or higher. I would get a quality unit and just run it using the low the pass, and run the K-horns full range. The only affordable unit I have found that has a low pass adjustable crossover that cuts low enough to integrate with the Klipschorn is the Dayton Audio Titanic -- and I would definitely opt for the 15 incher. It's also an acoustic suspension design -- which has a signature that I think would mesh with the Klipschorn bass better than a ported or passive unit. A fool like me would probably buy two. My son runs one with the RF-7's he bought from me, and I think it's killer.

High power Class AB output stage

Patented tracking downconverter power supply

Full parametric bass EQ

Phase reversal switch

Auto On/Off

Advanced soft clip circuitry

Toroidal power supply transformer

Power output: 512 watts RMS @ 8 ohms, 1024 watts RMS @ 4 ohms

S/N ratio: 98 dB (A-weighted)

Low-pass crossover: 30 - 200 Hz, 24 dB/octave

Auto On/Off

Dimensions: 11-15/16" W x 11-15/16" H x 5-1/4" D

[maxg]

Well just to be different from everyone else:

1. The most musical sub I have ever heard is the old Rel Strata 3 - it is a 10 inch sub and is one of the few that should be able to keep pace with your horn loaded woofers. It is not the last word in output levels - but it is one of the most flexible installations in that you can connect to your existing speaker outs and set the crossover point anywhere between 21 Hz and 100 Hz.

I do not think your estimate of 80-100 Hz will be right for this setup. I would guess something around 35-40 Hz for a Khorn (assuming it is breathing properly). Once properly setup you will never have to touch it again - except to switch it off from time to time - just to check it is working.

2. With horn loaded bass one is tempted to suggest a horn loaded sub. The only one I know of is the avantegard which is horribly expensive. On the other hand if you want the best....

3. Just as a matter of interest get hold of a big SS amp and have a play. At least that will show how much bass your KHorns are really capable of pushing. I cant help suspecting that your glorious little 1.5 watt whatever it is, is somewhat limited in its bass response.

Ultimately the Khorn, from memory, goes down to 35 Hz or thereabouts at -3dB. That means you will get even lower than that - but at much reduced sound pressure levels. There are not too many instruments that plumb those depths - maybe the largest Organ pipes hit the mid 20's but not much else.

I have heard a Khorn setup with an Accuphase E407 integrated amp. That pushed out some 170 very clean watts (the first 30 odd in class A). I have to say the last thing that ever crossed my mind with that setup was "Gee - wouldnt a sub add something here."

Of course there is always biamping as an option. In fact - adding a sub is bi-amping and adding another woofer - maybe biamping, being therefore simpler - is a better option>??

[Erik Mandaville]

Thanks once again for all the replies.

Dean: I have to say I do not believe that tubes are intrinsically or necessarily 'better' than transistors. I've heard some rather poor sounding tube output stages, where given the choice between them and a well-designed solid state amp, I would take the SS amp. It's also not my opinion that a signal suddenly becomes a poorer quality signal when it passes through a transistor. There are as many outstanding solid state designs and applications as there are poor ones using vacuum tubes. In the end, I don't think (for me, myself, and I!)the use of a solid state device, whether a source component, a preamplifier, or a power amplifier necessarily means that the audio signal it passes is compromised in a negative way. ANY active component through which a signal passes -- solid or hollow state -- will change the original sound in some way. The nice thing in all of this, is that very few listeners, except for the handful present at the original recorded event, would have the knowledge of the qualities and characteristics of that original sound. All we can do is choose a component that sounds good to us personally, and individually -- that colors the sound in a way that we happen to like or prefer. I have members in my own family that don't care for the sound of tubes, and prefer some of the qualities of good transistor preamps and amplifiers.

This is all so subjective and personal that, in my opinion, it's very hard to talk about it in terms of absolutes. Some tube designs are indeed better than some solid state designs, however I think we need to remember that the reverse may also be true; and that the output device itself may not necessarily be the only determining factor.

Erik

[Daddy Dee]

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On 11/22/2004 7:29:45 AM DeanG wrote:

With all that out of the way, you SET users are at a bit of an advantage though -- since you don't typically listen at 95db or higher. I would get a quality unit and just run it using the low the pass, and run the K-horns full range. The only affordable unit I have found that has a low pass adjustable crossover that cuts low enough to integrate with the Klipschorn is the Dayton Audio Titanic -- and I would definitely opt for the 15 incher. It's also an acoustic suspension design -- which has a signature that I think would mesh with the Klipschorn bass better than a ported or passive unit. A fool like me would probably buy two. My son runs one with the RF-7's he bought from me, and I think it's killer.

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Dean, Thanks. Makes sense to me as the most economical way to proceed. I think I may set up my CSW P1000 over Thanksgiving to see how it works in the configuration.

[Erik Mandaville]

Hi, Max:

Yes, 1.5 watts is correct. Dee has the same amp, as does Wolfram. This one is not mine, though. It was built for a friend who is borrowing my parafeed 2A3 amps.

I have actually done what you propose many times -- well, several times at least. I've used three different quite good SS amps with the K-horns, the best of which being one from Monarchy. Another one, a Carver, was so incredibly tube-like in its presentation that I would thought that to have been the case if I hadn't known otherwise.

Again, as I mentioned above, I think Dean is saying that the K-horns in the ideal room should not really need the added energy of a subwoofer. I don't have the ideal room, however, and think that I am missing some bass response that we would otherwise be getting.

I'm sure you are correct about the crossover range. Others have said the same thing. I am speaking from complete ignorance on the subject, since we have never even had a subwoofer in this house. I've NEVER used one before. However, I know without much doubt that we are missing some fundamental information down low. In my case, I am not willing to trade what I think to be unbeatable midrange and treble response that I am getting with a 1-3 watt single ended amplifier. This SE OTL, for all of it's 1.5 max output, is very, very good. It's unlike any other amp I have heard, solid state or tube.

The power issue is something that always comes up. Higher power amps I've had here did indeed often have greater bass response than this low power amp, and I would be wrong to claim otherwise. I have heard it for myself! However, none of them have had the accuracy or sheer musicality of the low power SET and OTL amps to which I've listened. And that's my personal trade-off. It's also just my opinion, because we know that not everyone has felt the same way about SET amps after having heard them.

However, I think its entirely possible to integrate a subwoofer with Klipschorns, but I want to again underscore the fact that I'm not really interested in chest vibrations, either. I don't want my ribs to rattle, but I do want a little more emphasis in the notes I know are there, but are just not able to speak as loudly as they need to in order to provide a totally balanced response.

I appreciate your input!

Erik

[seti]

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I have actually done what you propose many times -- well, several times at least. I've used three different quite good SS amps with the K-horns, the best of which being one from Monarchy. Another one, a Carver, was so incredibly tube-like in its presentation that I would thought that to have been the case if I hadn't known otherwise.

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Which Carver did you listen to I was considering either a Carver or NAD for my sub? I have seen the TFM 15cb or TFM 25 go for $200 and under on ebay not sure if that is enough juice though. Luckily I have two outputs on my wright pre.

SUB--crossover---SSamp--preamp out

I was told by the person I purchased the sub from that it should be set to go from 40-18cycles where the belles didn't reach but thats probably more to be felt than heard. I wonder if two of these would power my sub http://www.canaryaudio.com/Ref-One.htm LOL

[jheis]

Seti:

Don't know which Carver Erik was talking about, but I have a TFM-45 which (bridged to mono - as you would for a sub)is rated at 1,000 watts - should be more than enough juice!

James

[steve]

Erik

I am using a Bob Carver True Subwoofer MKII with my KHorns (sometimes) and I have it set to 35HZ as a crossover point to match the 'Horns. As stated in some of the earlier posts, like Dean's, it will muck up clear recordings, so I try to use it only when I feel like listening to bass heavy senseless rock n roll. It will run you out of the room if turned up, that's for sure! My KHorns are sealed in the corners, and although not the most perfect music room what with a sloped ceiling, there is plenty of bass without the sub. (I too run a 300B SET, though 8 watts a side)

As you said, you'll never know unless you try it!

Regards,

Steve

[maxg]

Now this is just a theory, but I have noticed that it is rather rare for people to talk about fabulous mid-range and claim to have significant bass presence.

I can't help wondering if this mid-range magic is a result of the reduced bass.

If my theory is correct whatever step Erik takes to enhance the bass will be to the apparent detriment of his glorious mid-range - merely by taking the "focus of the ear" away from those frequencies.

In some ways this effect would be akin to the low volume listening that I do on my own, relatively high powered amp. Below a certain threshold level high and low information is reduced, leaving only the mids. Unsurprisingly, at this volume level the mids sound great purely as a result of their isolation.

As the volume is raised and the other frequencies come to the fore I could easily be fooled into thinking the mid-range info has reduced - something I seriously doubt in reality.

It will be interesting to see Erik follow up on this. There are many on this thread already who claim the addition of sub-woofer bass mucks up other areas. Could well be the reason.

Lastly, having looked through all of Erik's responses and descriptions of what he is looking for I would strongly suggest finding a REL Strata 3 for testing purposes. As he is not looking for boom - merely to fill in the missing registers - the little REL is the most likely, IMHO, to fit the bill and definitely wont overpower his system.

I would suggest setting it up to roll off at around 40 Hz to start with - better to have a small whole than to re-inforce certain frequencies. If it sounds good (adjusting volume and location to suit) then you can slowly raise the roll off to the point you do get re-inforcement. One click down from that point should be perfect.

Do we need to cover how to position a sub Erik?

[Erik Mandaville]

Max indicates, "If my theory is correct whatever step Erik takes to enhance the bass will be to the apparent detriment of his glorious mid-range - merely by taking the "focus of the ear" away from those frequencies"

This is of interest to me, Max. From what I have heard from other sub/K-horn users via email, the result of the addition of an 'appropriate' subwoofer can provide the exact opposite from what you indicate above. Please know that I sincerely appreciate every bit of information I'm getting on this topic, however it is obviously just another case where there are very much indeed two sides to this Klipschorn/subwoofer story.

I have heard full-range systems using subwoofers that I found to be decidedly more 'full-range' than what we now have. In theory, I would say that the midrange quality we now have should really not be compromised or undermined in anyway by the slight increase of gain of the lower registers present on some material. If this were the case, then those instruments and performers responsible for reproducing the lowest notes in an orchestra should be gently shown to the door. All the midrange and upper frequencies will remain intact, and will hopefully become an equally important element in terms of slightly more comprehensive frequency response. I'm not looking for replacements for a sonic center stage. I've attended enough live events -- classical, jazz, and rock, to be able to detect a slight deficiency at frequency extremes.

How can I know unless I try? From what I have seen on this forum, we sometimes approach the sort of "I told you so!" mentality, which can become not constructive. I am probably also the only one on this forum who likes the sound of a particularly infamous crossover network. It's my hope that we are encouraged to pursue the kind of sound we like -- regardless of the machine producing it -- and indeed regardless of the fact that it may go against the prevailing opinions of the majority.

The nice thing about all of this, is that something can always be done about a situation that just doesn't work. There are people on this forum who had been nuts about a preamp or amplifier for months on end, only to sell it/them again a week later. I've had all of my equipment for years, and simply think it would be fun to try what some have described as a very valuable addition to their music systems.

It just doesn't have to be so serious or 'final.'

Oh! The model Carver amp: I'm sorry, I don't remember which one it was! It was black, had a watt meter for each channel, was a power amp (only), and was good for about 100 watts, I think. I don't even think I hit a single watt on the meter, though, because that got really loud really fast.

I also recently tried a beautifully built B&K power amp that seemingly weighed a ton. On one recording, the midrange horns about tore our ears off, and we thought it was due mainly to the SS B&K. The SE OTL, as did the Baldwin, reacted to the particular set of synthesizer notes in a very similar way, so we think the problem was a sudden peak in the recording.

Erik

[maxg]

"This is of interest to me, Max. From what I have heard from other sub/K-horn users via email, the result of the addition of an 'appropriate' subwoofer can provide the exact opposite from what you indicate above"

Erik,

Lets make this clear - that is exactly what should happen. In fact you are almost quoting verbatim from my old REL manual.

Further, this was my experience when I added the REL to the already installed Heresys I used to run.

As you yourself say - only some experimenting on your part will tell us what the result is for you. What I wrote was merely a theory in the light of the "low powered amp lover's" accounts of fabulous midranges against my own limited experience of such amps and their, shall we say, inadequate bass response and muted highs. (IMHO, YMMV and all that).

All of this stems from something I think Kelly wrote a couple of years or so ago here wherein he stated (as far as I remember) something to the effect that part of the magic of SET was precisely its low power and that any step taken to address that resulted, in his experience, in a diminishing of the beauties of the SET sound.

I hate paraphrasing like that - especially from someone who no longer inhabits the forum and can't correct my errors of recollection but it was something along those lines that begot my theorem.

If you do discover that the addition of a sub enhances not only the bass response but also the performance across the audible range (or even that it simply does not affect that midrange region at all) then you are on a real winner.

I await your results!!

[sfogg]

"I can't help wondering if this mid-range magic is a result of the reduced bass."

It would accent it sure, just like a rolled off treble would too.

If you had signifigant resonances in the bass (from your room) that hurt the clarity of the system because the 'ringing' will obscure details that follow in the music. I can demonstrate this very easily in my system as I have EQ that deals with the room resonances on all my speakers. Turning if off makes the music more muddy and clouded.

Shawn

[Erik Mandaville]

Max:

I've known Kelly for a long time -- even before he ever started posting on the Klipsch forum, and in fact before he even owned Klipsch speakers. We first made contact regarding some confusion some people were having over a particular part of the Welborne Labs Moondog schematic. I responded to one of his posts concerning it.

What Kelly thinks is what is best for Kelly. My name happens to be Erik. We have agreed on some things, not so on others, which I think is as it should be in all of this. I can't think of how boring any such arena such as this, established for the fair and equal (hopefully...) exchange of ideas and opinions, would be if every one had and listened to precisely the same equipment.

I have built and listened to MANY different SET amplifiers, and it's actually my theory and opinion that such an amp, indeed because its strengths may lie in the midrange and above, could be the IDEAL candidate for the supplemental bass response provided by a subwoofer. My concern, as mentioned before, has to do with obtaining a very close integration with the Klipschorns. With Lowthers, because they are probably even 'faster' than the K-horns in some respects, people had difficulty in finding an active subwoofer that could keep up with the rather hyper-active, but-within-their-range-and-limitations, otherwise (subjectively) great sounding Lowther drivers.

This experiment may sound absolutely terrible. Then again, it may not. I just wouldn't be very happy with myself if I didn't try something because a handful of people said it probably wouldn't work. The paleolithic fella who first looked at a hunk of flint and imagined a beautiful arrowhead or spearpoint probably ran into the same thing -- his buddies probably thought he was nuts. If whatever subwoofer we happen to get does not do what I am hoping it will, it will probably make a nice end table or foot massage. My feet kill after standing up all day at school.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts on this subject, Max.

Erik

[Colin]

Rock/population music certainly gets below 40Hz, where many mid and high loudspeakers can reach. 40Hz is the low string on the bass guitar, which means there are harmonics lower than the initial 40Hz note. The kick drum makes a 30Hz note and can reach momentary peaks of 120dB! So there certainly is a need for a powerful subwoofer for most modest full-range loudspeakers, including my super-sensitive walnut-oiled Cornwall 1s, with their B2 crossovers. Khorns have bass down to 30Hz, which incredibly hard for modest priced loudspeakers to do.

In your case, with the classic Klipsch corner Khorns away from the wall, you really are NOT getting the wonderful frequency response that the big ole horns can give you what a shame! Away from the wall, you are really missing out on the left hand notes of the piano and other instruments: maybe getting bass only to 100Hz like a bookshelf loudspeaker! So yes, false walls would do wonders for you. It would give you low bass, smoother frequency response, much better imaging and solve your positioning problems forever. Besides, framing and building a wall could be simpler than the electronics of making a subwoofer (unless you get a great kit). The seal on the sides does NOT have to be tight that is where the bass output is, but the tailboard should be firm against the corner to get the bass. Remember, Khorn bass is lean and accurate and can take some getting used to; try listening to some live acoustic bass if you can to retune your supercomputer ears to what the real stuff sounds like.

You will have to get a really good and deep subwoofer (most are NOT) to match the Khorns when they are against the wall. Modest subwoofers, retailing up to $1K, will intrude on the Khorn mid-bass and muddy the entire sound, low bass and mid-range.

Becuase the range of the classic Klipsch corner Khorns is so full and deep, I would look at measuring your room to see if there are bass nodes robbing you of your flat or even frequency response. A common node at 50Hz is all it takes to steal some of the oomph away from the bass. Low bass cant be located, only middle bass (40Hz and above) shows up. Most subwoofers should NOT show their presence at all, you should only feel their affects.

It is NOT subjective at all. Double blind listening tests show that people prefer tubes over solid-state.

Carver tube-like? Cmn! That I would have to hear.

I think your flea-powered amplifier may be starved for bass pushing horsepower, so a very deep solid-state subwoofer like the SVS would make a lot of sense. I know my ill-fated Klipsch LF10 sub-woofer, with its 500-watt amplifier, one active and two passive 10 drivers, helps out a lot with my flea-powered tube Bottlehead 2A3 Paramour amplifiers, but NOT so much with other amplifiers.

[garymd]

I've heard many say the reason low-watt SET/OTL amps have such great midrange is due to the lack of high and low-end signal. I don't know if that's true or not but is consistent with Max's theory. I'm not entirely convinced you aren't getting a smoother midrange however.

In support of that theory however, aren't some tone controls designed that way? The treble control on many amps actually just adjusts the midrange. To boost the percieved treble, you're actually just reducing the midrange.