Subs

[Erik Mandaville]

I'm really interested in trying one, but don't know if I should go for the added expense of torpedo bays and a full-length periscope.

....why do I do this to myself?!

But seriuosly. For adding a subwoofer in a Klipschorn-based system, what would be a good place to start? I have plans for a couple of different designs, and Home Depot is right across the street -- but not I'm not sure about the energy factor. The Klipschorns were also the first pair of speakers in about 15 years that I didn't make, and that was kind of nice!

We've talked in the past about those good-looking, one-hour kits from Parts Express, and I know Klipsch has several models from which to choose. Since I have never used a subwoofer in ANY system I've had, I just don't have experience on what would be suitable to use with Klipschorns. I'm sure I could make a reasonably good guess, but I would really appreciate some thoughts from those of you now using one along with Klipschorns. My interest has virtually 100% to do with bass quality rather than bass output, but I think it would also be important for any an active subwoofer to have the speed and agility to keep up with the lightening-fast K-horns.

Also, what have some of you found to be a good crossover over point? It seems to me that 100-80Hz might be good, but I guess the final decision as far as that goes will require some time and experimentation. This is something I'll need to save up for anyway, so there is time to do some research.

Any opinions and experiences with this would be most appreciated! Since my Klipschorns are not sealed into corners of the long wall because of a recent room rearrangement, I know I'm not getting the full benefit of the bass capability. There is still much more bass than what we ever had with the otherwise great Lowthers, but I really sense that we are missing some of really low-down information on certain CDs. I don't want to miss ANY of what may be there!

Thanks,

Erik

[Bill H.]

Erik,

Just a small Idea- Since your a DIYer......wouldn't it just be as efficient for you to build your False corners to Find the Bass in your Klipschorns, then to Buy a sub?............

[Erik Mandaville]

Hi, Bill -- and Thanks!

What you say makes perfect sense!

[Klewless]

Erik,

I'll add my 2 cents on using subs with Khorns. I use a Rel sub and do not need it 95% of the time. But that other 5% is like icing on the cake!

I run the Khorns full range and the sub samples the signal and rolls in around 40 Hz.

And, yes, the Rel cannot keep up with the Khorn on total output but I never run my Khorns anywhere near that level. The sub effectively determines just when to stop turning up the volume.

[mark1101]

Erik,

I run subs with my LaScalas, and they are just barely on. I have found that the LaScalas benefit from the subs quite a lot, but the subs are barely on. In other words, there's only a small amount required from them. That's the surprise I found out.

That being said, I don't know if I would need them at all with KHorns. I don't have any, but my corns definitely do not need sub help. So I'm thinking the false corners might be the best first step.

I don't understand these subs and their huge wattages and such. I can't use mine for what their worth, they'll blow the house apart. My subs have excellent output and diasappear into my system, but I am only using them on 1 1/2 - 2 out of 10 on the volume, and I think they are 320 watt subs.

Basically, I think you'll find you do not need much.

[sfogg]

"but I am only using them on 1 1/2 - 2 out of 10 on the volume, and I think they are 320 watt subs."

That means very little, just that you have the gain turned down on the pre-amp section of the sub amp. You could still easily be using all the wattage available from the amp during the loudest sections. The gain control is just to let you balance the sub with the rest of your system, it is not an indicator of how much power or not you are feeding the subwoofers.

Shawn

[dubai2000]

My recommendation: choose an SVS that suits your budget, run it parallel to your power amps and set the crossover frequency low. The lowest limit at my sub are 40Hz and like this the unit adds the right (and in my opinion vital!) flavour.....yes, even to Khorns...but of course other might/will disagree .

Wolfram

[meuge]

While running the subs in parallel may give you an "ooomph", it is far from balanced. I would say get an Outlaw ICBM-1 (you can find my review in the 2ch section) and get yourself a nice sub. Disable the sub's onboard crossover (or set it to the highest value if you can't disable it), and set the crossover on the ICBM to 40Hz, and the slope to 36dB (ICBM has the sharpest analog crossover slope I've seen). This will preserve pretty much all of the accurate bass your Khorns can reproduce, while relieving them of the need to try to dig where they can't reach. Just make sure that your sub is appropriately clean and accurate - so don't match a small, weak, cheap sub with the might of Khorns.

P.S. I matched an HSU VTF-2 w. my RF-3IIs and I am barely satisfied (although it's a LOT better running through the ICBM). So draw your own conclusions

[Daddy Dee]

Erik,

Since you are interested in a DIY project, there are a couple of things you can do. One is to offer yourself the convenience of controling the sub volume from your listening position. I've got a Cambridge Soundworks P1000, it has both remote control and a control box which can be placed for your convenience. It is much better than continually getting down on the knees in the corner to adjust the volume. You definitely want to be able to dial in the crossover so the sub picks up where the Khorns roll off. To tweak the sub volume from the listening position while listening is really nice.

Also, my listening observations (with LaScalas) were surprising, like Mark's... sometimes I might have dropped the signal to the amp and mains and only heard what the sub had been playing. I was absolutely amazed that as much as it added to the whole musical situation, it was actually doing so little in terms of volume. I'd think, there is no way that little bit of bottom end could make so much difference in the musicality of the system. But, hey, I'm easily amazed. What can I say?

[jt1stcav]

I can't really add anything concerning the use of subwoofers with Heritage Klipsch. The last time I used my DIY 3 cubic foot sealed enclosured sub (with a dual voice coiled 15" Dayton Audio DVC Series driver), it was with my inefficient Magnepans, controlled by a dbx Pro 234 active crossover, and powered by two Carver M-400t stereo power amps bridged to 500 watts each in mono.

Before I sold my equipment, I did try the subwoofer with the newly aquired Cornwalls, and it was really only noticable when I played pipe organ music...the Cornwalls playing at their full range, while the sub was playing bass frequencies from 40Hz on down. You could definately tell a big difference when the sub was activated, especially when those deep pedal bass notes from a 32' Contra Bassoon reached the lowest octave; its fundamentles reaching to its lowest 16Hz at low CCCC was truely felt as well as heard!

Since the Cornwalls play down to 38Hz, for most music a sub isn't really a neccessity IMO, but for power rock/metal, large scale symphonic compositions, and for pipe organ works at full tutti, then I can see (and hear) a use for one, as long as its levels and crossover points are set to match your loudspeakers...Nothing worse than a boomy, overbearing sub that drowns out the music it's supposed to supplement. I kinda do miss not having a subwoofer connected to my present system (my preamp doesn't have a second output for a powered sub), thus my favorite pipe organ CDs do lack a bit of punch in the lowest octave. But for jazz, blues, female vocals, and classic rock, I can live without one quite easily.

Just my two cents...

[Erik Mandaville]

All really very helpful information -- Thanks! I've moved the horns to the long wall again, and may trim down the one short section of window frame that prevents a complete seal on that side.

...I've heard the room does not look as nice as it used to, but Marie is very patient with my audio craziness. We'll see how this work out. I guess I have to agree that visually, it looks better with the horns on the shorter wall. It seems there are constantly tradeoffs -- from circuit designs, to room arrangements!

I appreciate all of your help, here.

JT: could you split the signal at your CDP? This would give the active sub a good hot line-level signal, but the resulting impedance alterations from such a connection might/might not be a concern. I guess the only way to know would be to try it. You could use a Y-jack off of each output on your CD player -- one of which would go the preamp, the other to the line level inputs on the sub amp. Maybe worth a try?

Erik

[jt1stcav]

That's a thought, Erik! I like the idea and would like to try it. But alas, I no longer have the subwoofer, and my brothers are a stingy lot and wouldn't want me yankin' their subs from their systems just to try out your theory.

[garymd]

I'm in the same situation Erik. I'm thinking an RSW15 will do the trick. I still haven't dragged my RSW12 downstairs to audition with the khorns but I'll post my thoughts once I do.

There are many LPs that are just plain "thin" recordings that would benefit from the use of a sub IMO. With most good recordings, I don't think a sub is necessary but maybe I'll be suprised.

[Erik Mandaville]

It seems that what people are enjoying with a subwoofer are the lowest octaves that the Klipschorns, La Scalas, etc. are just not quite getting (at least with the desired amount of gain) on their own. This may actually be THE very thing that users of higher power amplifiers are and have been talking about. I admit it! I've been a pretty strong advocate for lower power SET amps, but maybe this is precisely what others have been trying to convey.

I have been using the SE OTL from Transcendent Sound for the past week, and enjoying it very much. I will say it is able to play louder than the level at which I prefer to listen. Not that it sounds bad when turned up, but because it's just too loud for me. Hmmmmmmm.....more to think about.

I recently shared some very enjoyable and rewarding time with another forum member who brought the top section of one of his horns to compare with my own. This person is a very accomplished and professional musician (drummer!), and he noticed immediately that there was some information missing lower down than my horns have been paddling. It was there, but far too faint to make a difference.

I agree absolutely what Jim has said about the quantity/quality issue, and the last thing I want is throbbing, one-note bass response.

How I wish the TV screen didn't have to be in the middle! I don't know why that bothers me, but I have always vowed that I WOULD NOT have my sacred two-channel music system integrated with the television.

Great idea on the fine tuning offered by a remote, Dee! I seem to be constantly getting up and down making adjustments here and there..

Erik

[Deang]

The double edged sword always comes into play. Go for the ultimate in smoothness, and you lose the solid bottom and dynamics. Go for the rock solid bottom, detail, and hair trigger transients -- and you start getting a little rough and forward through the middle and top. I think it's why I won't move away from these British amps I'm using -- they seem to do a very good job of toeing the line.

I think a sub in a two-channel system with Klipschorns brings in more problems than it solves.

[Parrot]

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On 11/21/2004 3:42:17 PM garymd wrote:

There are many LPs that are just plain "thin" recordings that would benefit from the use of a sub IMO. With most good recordings, I don't think a sub is necessary but maybe I'll be suprised.

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If the recording is thin, then the low end has been shaved off, and a sub isn't going to be doing anything at all. You'd get better results with a good equalizer, provided there is a little info in the frequencies you want to boost.

[jt1stcav]

Dean, I know how much you like your metal/hard rock music. I don't recall how loud you like to play your system with your new Klipschorns, but do you notice a small level of bass loss at higher levels without the use of a subwoofer, or are you satisfied with the bass punch you get from the kick drums and bass guitars with just your Klipschorns? I'm surprised at times with my Cornwalls at just how much bass output I can get through 'em when I like to crank out AC/DC or Led Zep! Just curious on your thoughts...

[mike stehr]

"Could you split the signal at your CDP?"

I do, I just use a rat shack gold series splitter. Through a active crossover with a gain control, then to a amp bridged in mono.

Two SVS 16/46 CS passive subwoofers are wired in series to the amp.

The amp also has volume controls.

I was happy at around 40, 50 Hz low-pass for the subs, with the Cornwalls doing the rest.

I haven't listened to my subwoofers for quite awhile lately, haven't really cared.

Until we watch a DVD or something.

[garymd]

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On 11/21/2004 6:13:18 PM paulparrot wrote:

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On 11/21/2004 3:42:17 PM garymd wrote:

There are many LPs that are just plain "thin" recordings that would benefit from the use of a sub IMO. With most good recordings, I don't think a sub is necessary but maybe I'll be suprised.

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If the recording is thin, then the low end has been shaved off, and a sub isn't going to be doing anything at all. You'd get better results with a good equalizer, provided there is a little info in the frequencies you want to boost.

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Good point Paul but I'm not entirely sold. I've tried an EQ but I didn't like what it did to the overall sound of my system. It took away some of the sweetness of the Blueberry. Maybe a better EQ would yield better results but I only have one (Audio Control C-101). I think changing the crossover point on the sub to maybe 60 or 70Hz would help round out some of the thin areas on those particular LPs. That's my theory at least.

[Erik Mandaville]

I understand you point, Dean. Honestly, this SE OTL that I'm finally really having some to enjoy (thanks K.S.!)just surprises me with how good it as with 95% of EVERYTHING. I've built three of these things, but this last one was for a friend who is virtually a neighbor. He and I have been sharing components, comparing and contrasting -- it's been lots of fun. I think what Wolfram has shared with me, and knowing that his listening preferences are probably quite similar to my own -- as well as contributions of others, here, the sub would be used in a way that would hopefully draw very little, if any, attention to itself.

But I think your point is that in a room that is particularly well-suited to Klipschorns, a subwoofer shouldn't be necessary. The problem I am concerned about has to do with as seamless an integration with the main speakers as possible. I do not want a heavy cube vibrating away in some corner, exciting the room in all sorts of unpleasant ways. I want to hear deep organ, contra bassoon, and double bass notes a bit more than I do right now -- and that's it! I already get great impact from percussion. It's the really low-end stuff that often provides a foundation for everything else on top that I want more of. Most heavy metal we listen to just doesn't have much of that. Mike Rutherford's bass pedals in Genesis sometimes hit pretty low notes, and I'd like those to be more pronounced, as well.

If it just doesn't work out, off to ebay or Audiogon. One can never know unless one tries for oneself, which unfortunately sometimes may go against the grain of things.