seti Posted December 24, 2004 Share Posted December 24, 2004 http://home.comcast.net/~enghenry/diy/taste.pdf When I first started looking at buying tube gear I had alot of question about tubes in general. The link above is to a document called A Taste Of Tubes which answered not all but alot if the questions I had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Major Bump! Thanks Seti for posting this. Althought I've learned a bunch about tubes since coming here this is a wonderful article and very informative. I also suspect with Xmas just gone there will be new folks checking in with various questions about gear, speakers etc. and probably more then a few questions about tubes. This article is the perfect appetizer. Yes I'm sure like me most of them think tubes are for use in bicycles and floating down rivers in the summer. But the ones the article is talking about are made of glass and you don't want to sit your bumpess on them! For dial-ups it's a large download but worth it. Again thanks for posting this and let's bump it a few times so as members trickle back in from the holidays they can fix it in their minds and use it as a reference when questions come up down the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 ---------------- On 12/28/2004 9:13:36 PM thebes wrote: For dial-ups it's a large download but worth it. ---------------- I guess so: 67 pages! Was this too soon for a bump? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Paul, come back in a day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 ---------------- On 12/28/2004 9:22:22 PM thebes wrote: Paul, come back in a day. ---------------- Why a day? Your not sitting your bumpess on the tubes are you? Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted December 29, 2004 Author Share Posted December 29, 2004 ---------------- On 12/28/2004 9:13:36 PM thebes wrote: Major Bump! Thanks Seti for posting this. Althought I've learned a bunch about tubes since coming here this is a wonderful article and very informative. I also suspect with Xmas just gone there will be new folks checking in with various questions about gear, speakers etc. and probably more then a few questions about tubes. This article is the perfect appetizer. Yes I'm sure like me most of them think tubes are for use in bicycles and floating down rivers in the summer. But the ones the article is talking about are made of glass and you don't want to sit your bumpess on them! For dial-ups it's a large download but worth it. Again thanks for posting this and let's bump it a few times so as members trickle back in from the holidays they can fix it in their minds and use it as a reference when questions come up down the road. ---------------- Thanks I hate not knowing very much about something that I use so much. If anyone has a good resource or document for a newbie please post. I also like the collection of articles at the decware site in fact his article "WHY THE SET & HIGH EFFICIENCY SPEAKER APPROACH WORKS" is one of the reasons I decided to give SET(no intention of starting a flamewar) a try. WHY THE SET & HIGH EFFICIENCY SPEAKER APPROACH WORKS MAY 2003 by Steve Deckert On our audiophile forums, members have a moniker that usually includes a tag line. Mine say; If the first watt sucks, why continue? Having said that, this is not going to be another hard line attempt to convince you that SET amps are the only way to get good sound, or that high efficiency speakers automatically sound better than anything else. Over the years I have learned that for every assumption about audio there are exceptions that could lead one to conclude the exact opposite. This law encompasses every facet of audio, from cartridges to loudspeakers and all the cables and components in between. Most people for example have assumed that a 2 to 8 watt per channel SET amp wouldnt have the balls to get out of its own way. It couldnt possibly have any real bass, but we hear the midrange is to die for. Most people would also assume the only way to hear any dynamics from a flea powered amplifier is to use big nasty horn speakers so really what is the point? All of these assumptions are probably a side effect of the general direction that high-end audio has taken since the 1960s. Solid state has made high power affordable for everyone so the loudspeaker industry responded by making speakers less efficient to both reduce their size and flatten their response. Despite popular belief, you do not need horn speakers to use or enjoy a SET amplifier. You can also find many horn speaker designs that sound wonderful, better than wonderful in fact, so the question then becomes this: What are the advantages are to using SET amps with high efficiency speakers? To answer this, lets start with the advantages of a SET amplifier over any other type. A Single Ended Triode is the simplest circuit design there is, using the least number of parts. Typically this is a driver stage coupled to a single output device. Triodes do not require negative feedback, something found in most all push-pull circuits, solid state or tube. Negative feedback is used to lower distortion specs and in the case of solid state devices it is often the only thing keeping the transistors from exploding all over the inside of your amplifier. Feedback a problem? If you dont mind the time smear it creates and the resulting 2 dimensional sound stage, then no I guess its probably not. Aside from the amplifiers superiority by simplicity, there is a more profound reason for using SET amplifiers. The magic predominately lies in the first watt. By magic I mean inner detail and most of the dynamics. For example, a pair of 96dB speakers playing with one watt of power against the average noise floor in your listening room (55dB) is 40 dB of dynamic range. (96 55 = 41 dB) Adding a second watt increases the dynamic range by only 3 dB. For every additional 3 dB you need to double your power. This should clearly illustrate that there is over 10 times the dynamic range in the first watt as there is in the second. This brings us directly to loudspeakers. A typical loudspeaker today is 86 dB efficient with 1 watt. It also usually has a complex crossover that attempts to keep the frequency response and impedance flat. The crossover alone will usually dissipate a significant portion of the first watt as heat before it even reaches the drivers. To reach the same loudness level as the 96 dB speaker will with 1 watt requires over 8 watts on the 86dB speaker. If we used 2 watts on the 96 dB speaker the other would require 16 watts to keep up. If we used 4 watts on the 96 dB speaker the other would require 32 watts to keep up. The problem here is resolution. If you cant hit a listening level with the 1st watt, youre not likely to hear whats happening in that 1st watt. For a driver to achieve a high efficiency its moving parts must be low in mass. That makes it dramatically faster or more accurate than a speaker with heavier moving parts. If you like inner detail and want to hear all of the textures and layers of a good recording you need fast, efficient and coherent speakers. A good SET amp combined with a single full range driver with no crossover or a simple 2-way using minimal crossover parts on the tweeter only, has a purity and depth that you simply dont find in more conventional systems. It is a benchmark for coherency, and noted for its ability to create hauntingly real holographic sound stage. Bass and dynamics with this combination sound more realistic in part from the tremendous speed and in part from the coherency. Ive consulted many people about their audio systems, and the most common complaints include dry somewhat fatiguing sound with a fairly boring soundstage followed by the realization that it simply doesnt connect you to the music emotionally like it could. Experience has taught me that by far the easiest way to get a liquid sound that becomes holographic with stunning clarity and detail, something that excites the listener, is to set him up with an SET and simple pair of efficient speakers. It also usually ends up being the least expensive solution. The biggest conformation of this is reports from audiophiles who used to have several hundred watts and many thousands of dollars invested in show winning audio gear, but now report that even a good 2 watt SET on efficient speakers has better dynamics and weight which they find simply amazing. If youve ever observed how audiophiles rotate through audio gear during their lifetime you might also find it interesting that the ones who finally land on SET amps and good speakers seldom find anything they like better. The bigger is better mentality that is directly connected to more expensive the better is certainly the handicap that stunts most audiophiles from discovering truly high fidelity sound. Will the guys at the audio salon laugh yes the will. Will your fellow audiophiles laugh when they hear you sold everything and got a 2-watt amplifier yes the will. Is this important to you? Only you can decide, but I would suggest it has little to do with high fidelity. In closing, remember this It is dangerous to place amplifiers, speakers, cables etc., into neat little categories in an effort to make some sense of it all. Not all tube amps sound good. Not all solid- state amps sound bad. With the Internet audiophiles have been set free to research things in a far more unbiased way then ever before. Before the Internet there were only trade magazines, and manufactures literature to educate us all and it goes without saying fairly biased sources. Of course the Internet is full of misinformation, some intentional, some out of ignorance, but at least you can find all sides and make your own determinations. -Steve Deckert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 excellent, both really, only page 14 so far, but I like deckert's "the ones who finally land on SET amps and good speakers seldom find anything they like better." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 ---------------- On 12/29/2004 5:46:41 PM seti wrote: Thanks I hate not knowing very much about something that I use so much. If anyone has a good resource or document for a newbie please post. I also like the collection of articles at the decware site in fact his article "WHY THE SET & HIGH EFFICIENCY SPEAKER APPROACH WORKS" is one of the reasons I decided to give SET(no intention of starting a flamewar) a try. WHY THE SET & HIGH EFFICIENCY SPEAKER APPROACH WORKS MAY 2003 by Steve Deckert On our audiophile forums, members have a moniker that usually includes a tag line. Mine say; If the first watt sucks, why continue? Having said that, this is not going to be another hard line attempt to convince you that SET amps are the only way to get good sound, or that high efficiency speakers automatically sound better than anything else. Over the years I have learned that for every assumption about audio there are exceptions that could lead one to conclude the exact opposite. This law encompasses every facet of audio, from cartridges to loudspeakers and all the cables and components in between. Most people for example have assumed that a 2 to 8 watt per channel SET amp wouldnt have the balls to get out of its own way. It couldnt possibly have any real bass, but we hear the midrange is to die for. Most people would also assume the only way to hear any dynamics from a flea powered amplifier is to use big nasty horn speakers so really what is the point? All of these assumptions are probably a side effect of the general direction that high-end audio has taken since the 1960s. Solid state has made high power affordable for everyone so the loudspeaker industry responded by making speakers less efficient to both reduce their size and flatten their response. Despite popular belief, you do not need horn speakers to use or enjoy a SET amplifier. You can also find many horn speaker designs that sound wonderful, better than wonderful in fact, so the question then becomes this: What are the advantages are to using SET amps with high efficiency speakers? To answer this, lets start with the advantages of a SET amplifier over any other type. A Single Ended Triode is the simplest circuit design there is, using the least number of parts. Typically this is a driver stage coupled to a single output device. Triodes do not require negative feedback, something found in most all push-pull circuits, solid state or tube. Negative feedback is used to lower distortion specs and in the case of solid state devices it is often the only thing keeping the transistors from exploding all over the inside of your amplifier. Feedback a problem? If you dont mind the time smear it creates and the resulting 2 dimensional sound stage, then no I guess its probably not. Aside from the amplifiers superiority by simplicity, there is a more profound reason for using SET amplifiers. The magic predominately lies in the first watt. By magic I mean inner detail and most of the dynamics. For example, a pair of 96dB speakers playing with one watt of power against the average noise floor in your listening room (55dB) is 40 dB of dynamic range. (96 55 = 41 dB) Adding a second watt increases the dynamic range by only 3 dB. For every additional 3 dB you need to double your power. This should clearly illustrate that there is over 10 times the dynamic range in the first watt as there is in the second. This brings us directly to loudspeakers. A typical loudspeaker today is 86 dB efficient with 1 watt. It also usually has a complex crossover that attempts to keep the frequency response and impedance flat. The crossover alone will usually dissipate a significant portion of the first watt as heat before it even reaches the drivers. To reach the same loudness level as the 96 dB speaker will with 1 watt requires over 8 watts on the 86dB speaker. If we used 2 watts on the 96 dB speaker the other would require 16 watts to keep up. If we used 4 watts on the 96 dB speaker the other would require 32 watts to keep up. The problem here is resolution. If you cant hit a listening level with the 1st watt, youre not likely to hear whats happening in that 1st watt. For a driver to achieve a high efficiency its moving parts must be low in mass. That makes it dramatically faster or more accurate than a speaker with heavier moving parts. If you like inner detail and want to hear all of the textures and layers of a good recording you need fast, efficient and coherent speakers. A good SET amp combined with a single full range driver with no crossover or a simple 2-way using minimal crossover parts on the tweeter only, has a purity and depth that you simply dont find in more conventional systems. It is a benchmark for coherency, and noted for its ability to create hauntingly real holographic sound stage. Bass and dynamics with this combination sound more realistic in part from the tremendous speed and in part from the coherency. Ive consulted many people about their audio systems, and the most common complaints include dry somewhat fatiguing sound with a fairly boring soundstage followed by the realization that it simply doesnt connect you to the music emotionally like it could. Experience has taught me that by far the easiest way to get a liquid sound that becomes holographic with stunning clarity and detail, something that excites the listener, is to set him up with an SET and simple pair of efficient speakers. It also usually ends up being the least expensive solution. The biggest conformation of this is reports from audiophiles who used to have several hundred watts and many thousands of dollars invested in show winning audio gear, but now report that even a good 2 watt SET on efficient speakers has better dynamics and weight which they find simply amazing. If youve ever observed how audiophiles rotate through audio gear during their lifetime you might also find it interesting that the ones who finally land on SET amps and good speakers seldom find anything they like better. The bigger is better mentality that is directly connected to more expensive the better is certainly the handicap that stunts most audiophiles from discovering truly high fidelity sound. Will the guys at the audio salon laugh yes the will. Will your fellow audiophiles laugh when they hear you sold everything and got a 2-watt amplifier yes the will. Is this important to you? Only you can decide, but I would suggest it has little to do with high fidelity. In closing, remember this It is dangerous to place amplifiers, speakers, cables etc., into neat little categories in an effort to make some sense of it all. Not all tube amps sound good. Not all solid- state amps sound bad. With the Internet audiophiles have been set free to research things in a far more unbiased way then ever before. Before the Internet there were only trade magazines, and manufactures literature to educate us all and it goes without saying fairly biased sources. Of course the Internet is full of misinformation, some intentional, some out of ignorance, but at least you can find all sides and make your own determinations. -Steve Deckert ---------------- Now that is from a real unbiased source Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 Ok, good, the last pages for much faster, interesting stuff, good beginner reference and I learned some things too! thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 "This is one reason why many connoisseurs find that tube amps sound more powerful than similarly rated transistor amps partially explaining the popular belief that tube watts are twice as powerful as solid state watts." Actually, tube amps typically put out about FIVE times more current than their ratings, which means that a 5-watt tube amp perorms more like a 25-watt SS amp... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted December 29, 2004 Author Share Posted December 29, 2004 ---------------- On 12/29/2004 6:05:38 PM NOSValves wrote: Now that is from a real unbiased source ---------------- True but it's not like he claimed that set was the only way path. In closing, remember this It is dangerous to place amplifiers, speakers, cables etc., into neat little categories in an effort to make some sense of it all. Not all tube amps sound good. Not all solid- state amps sound bad. With the Internet audiophiles have been set free to research things in a far more unbiased way then ever before. Before the Internet there were only trade magazines, and manufactures literature to educate us all and it goes without saying fairly biased sources. Of course the Internet is full of misinformation, some intentional, some out of ignorance, but at least you can find all sides and make your own determinations. Finally got my turntable going this is the first time in 10 years (mmf2 w\grado reference cartridge) that I've had my own TT. I think my new phono pre may need some burn in time but so far it sounds good although alot of my old vinyl is in very sad sad shape so poppy I can hardly stand it looks like I am buying new vinyl tomorrow : ). I forgot how much I liked Joan Jett at least that vinyl is ok. The end is neigh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhawk92 Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 Here's another bump for this, as I found it very informative and was searching back a week or so for threads I hadn't read yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 thak to the Net, we now know that there are alternatives to the cone and big amps sold in stereo stores... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 The source document in PDF is located here. This "booklet" was included with Sonic Frontiers amps. They were bought by Anthem. http://www.anthemav.com/OldSitev1/frames/tubesfr.html Lots of good info to get a basic understanding of tubes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.