fire pinch Posted August 14, 2001 Share Posted August 14, 2001 Many people say that horn loaded system don't have a good soundstage... is it true? Is the sound directional? I plan to buy a Klipsch Reference RF-3 and i want an outstanding soundstage. Please give me your comments! This message has been edited by fire pinch on 08-14-2001 at 09:36 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted August 14, 2001 Share Posted August 14, 2001 Absolutely Not True! Even when set up at its best, the images I have gotten over the years with my big old Cornwalls seems to be more oval in shape, along the front wall, then the wide encompassing circle that some reviewers describe with cone speakers placed far out into the room - while the Klipsch image seems to be wider than what I have heard from top of the line B&Ws, the depth is not there unless the speakers are moved out from the front wall, Even then imaging is best with a solo singer and a few instruments, I recently listened to a series of Klipsch speakers up against a series of B&Ws, all of the speakers where several feet away from the front and side walls, the difference in imaging between the brands was slight ... ------------------ big old Cornwalls, Bottlehead 2A3 Paramour tube amps, Dynaco series II tube pre-amp, Rotel CD player, KSW200 & LF10 subs This message has been edited by Colin on 08-16-2001 at 08:33 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted August 14, 2001 Share Posted August 14, 2001 fire pinch---I can't speak about RF-3s but when listening to my LaScalas, Cornwalls and other good horns I was so busy listening to the music and how good the actual instruments sounded that imaging and soundstage was the last thing on my mind. But horns can image and soundstage well, I'm told by other people that the Altec-JBL hybrids I use now do that kind of stuff very well, me, I don't pay much attention to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J M O N Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 I agree with TBrennan. Maybe it's just my ears, but soundstage and imaging mean very little to me. To me, dynamics are much, much, much more important. I just don't understand how the "high-end" world seems to place so much importance on imaging and soundstage, and practically ignores dynamic range. Dynamic range is where the emotion comes from in music. It's a big part of the reason that we enjoy music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cornell Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 Keep in mind that horns have a straight directional shot, instead of standard mids that do not!! In other words, youd have to really crank a standard set of speakers, to even come close to Klipsch!! In the midrange tweeter sections!! And still not make it there!! Ive owned several thousand speakers in my life, and have never heard the sound like Klipsch anywhere else!! Horns are directional, straight forward, in other words, to this also, make sure you place them to your sitting enviorment, when you sit down to listen to your speakers!! Piont the speakers directly to the listening area!! Ive also heard people say, that Klipsch makes the music sound like they have a head cold!! Keep in mind, the very first source of music, ever created in the world, was 1 horn, a wind up record player with a horn!!! Well, that should basically answer what is the best today!! Scince ive owned Klipsch, i havent turned the bass or the treble for the last 6 years!! Of loudness!! Flat, PERIOD!! Well, the wife is bored now so id better go!! Goodnite Regards Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 fire pinch no soundstage with Khorns? as has been said before-absolutely NOT true. Although my current listening room is too small for them (not enough distance between speakers) I do get a (relatively) big and deep soundstage which strikes me as quite realistic. Compared to what I have listening to I find that the Khorns are not only excellent when it comes to the dynamic representation of music, but also when it comes to revealing the room in which a recording has been made. Just last night I was listening to a live transmission from the stage of an opera house and you could really tell that the microphones were in a rather big hall. The actual sound was not very good -too 'muddy' (for that the stage was probably too deep) but at least realistic. I don't know anything about the RF-3, but my comments refer to my own set of speakers and a friend's La Scala. In both cases I find the representation of music (all its aspects: soundstage, dynamics, timbre etc.) very, very convincing. But go out and listen for yourself. Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prana-Bindu Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 Fire Pinch: I've had a set of RF-3's for about a year now, and I've had the opportunity to listen to them with three different integrated amps. You can get a more-than-adequate soundstage with the RF-3's if you place them well in an adequately treated room. I started out this journey with a Luxman LV-177 and the RF-3's placed on the sides of the components and very close to the wall in front of the listenting position. My first correction -- moving the speakers away from the walls (including the side walls) -- improved the soundstage so much that I didn't think I even had one before. Next changes: component isolation and power conditioning -- these may not have increased the size of the soundstage, but they definitely presented a darker background to the music that allowed for better imaging and tighter-sounding dynamics. Big change: VTL IT-85 integrated amp -- as far as the soundstage goes, not bigger, but more involving, as if the soundstage started to wrap around the listening position (favorite amp so far). Different change: Audio Refinement Complete integrated amp -- flatter and smaller soundstage than with VTL, but very well-balanced sound with a firm grip on the bass. One concern for you if you go with RF-3's: the higher end of the frequency range can be overemphasized (at least to my tastes) with certain amps. I noticed that the two solid state amps in my experience sounded really shrill and too bright as compared to the tubed VTL. The VTL rounded off the high's in a way that made the other two amps almost annoying in their renditions of higher frequencies. The RF-3's are definitely bright speakers, so you'd be well advised to make sure your other equipment will make a good combination for your tastes. Take your gear in to the dealer and demand an audition! Also, the RF-3's are rather up-front speakers. In other words, the soundstage will seem closer to the listening position than many other speakers. If you prefer to have the soundstage further back, be careful about the gear with which you match the speakers or look to other speakers. One of the things that made a HUGE difference in the size and stability of the soundstage with my RF-3's is the amount of toe-in. I found that the lateral soundstage collapsed if I had the RF-3's pointing directly at my ears. I'm still experimenting, but I'm half-way between pointing at my ears and pointing straight out, and the stage keeps growing as I move closer to straight-out. It's somewhere in between the two, though, because I noticed that when they point straight out the soundstage gets totally unstable and the sound gets a somewhat thinner. Of course, these findings probably have more to do with the characteristics of my room, so be sure to experiment with placement of whichever speakers you decide to get. One more thing (I really don't want to get back to work): I'm currently playing around with room treatments, and I've noticed a nice benefit to the absorption of the first side reflection. At this time, the left channel is being subjected to some (not much) absorption and the right channel has absolutely no absorption or diffusion of the first reflection. I've noticed that the left speaker has started to disappear. In other words, there are many more instances when I can tell that the sound is coming out of the box on my right side, and the left channel seems more and more to be spread out along the soundstage and not so much coming out of a box. This seems to be making the left soundstage far more stable than the right, and the left side is more likely to give me that "wrapped around" sound. I'm thinking of building some absorption panels or maybe building some room lenses (exciting!). I wouldn't worry too much about the soundstage capabilities of the horns. I would, however, definitely go out and listen to as many speakers as you have the opportunity to audition. I love my RF-3's, but I definitely like the Aerial Acoustic 6's I heard being driven by the VTL IT-85 a whole lot more. I plan to give horns a chance against the 6's, but it's a sound that's tough to beat. If only the local dealer stocked the Heritage series.... Good luck, young bruh! ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 I would say that horn-loaded speakers, and klipsch in particular, "soundstage" very well, if by that you are talking about placing instruments and voices in specific locations left to right. As for depth, IMHO that is largely an effect achieved by pulling speakers out into the room, away from room boundaries, thereby generating some delayed reflections from the wall behind the speakers. IOW, it ain't really "reproducing" anything; it's generating a room dependent effect. I would't worry about it. I'm sure a lot of people would not necessarily agree with that, but hey, this is America! I can make any **** -eyed, unsubstantiated statement I like! ------------------ JDMcCall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 "****" -- or maybe I can't! The word is (let's sse if this gets by the cyber-censor): cockeyed ------------------ JDMcCall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prana-Bindu Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 That's why FoxNews is so popular.... ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Adams Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 TBrennen said: "fire pinch---I can't speak about RF-3s but when listening to my LaScalas, Cornwalls and other good horns I was so busy listening to the music and how good the actual instruments sounded that imaging and soundstage was the last thing on my mind." <big sigh of relief> Man - I was beginning to think I was the only one who felt this way. I mean, I enjoy sometimes being able to say that I can pick out where a guitar or horn player is "standing", but I've always been much more enamoured with the quality of the sound and it's realism. Maybe because other brands of speakers have a hard time creating this realism, they shoot back with the imaging/soundstage thing. IMHO, I could care less. I want a piccolo to sound like a piccolo, rain to sound like rain and explosions should make my neighbors call the police. Tom Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprocket Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 It's great that so many audio enthusiasts can have such different requirements for "their" most important musical building block in the art of reproduced music, big bass, liquid mids, shimmering highs, vast soundstage, godlike dynamics ect ect. Understanding the interplay of the systems components somtimes complementing, somtimes reenforcing a strength or masking a weakness of an upstream or downstream components is the joy of this journey. Sometimes failing one group of components and working well with another. It's the great fun of this hobby (or madness) that we share. Lets remenber that the matching of components to each other has some relevance here. It ok to ask: do these horn speakers soundstage well?. An answer can be given. Asking what amp, cables, preamp, ect work well with these speakers to help produce this soundstage may be more relevent and may maximize what your looking for... Some say that tube amps do soundstage a little better than solidstate. This is my experience and if we look at Colins's system (2A3 tube amp) he articulates well his experience and I think his preference for good soundstage. High sensitivity speakers are a prerequisite for tube amps and Klipsch speakers fill this requirement very well. Some solidstate amps work well to produce soundstage as well but some are weak in this area. I hopeful this will help. Most of all have fun with the journey... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 Lest you get the wrong impression, soundstage is very important to me and horns do it great. Sitting in front of a fine sounding stereo system with a clearly defined holographic image of a song bird right there in front of your ears, is an intoxicating experience. It is the ultimate test of a musical system. It is real or is it is Memorex? I have tried all sorts of tricks to show off my simple two-channel system; high recording quality CDs, Jurassi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prana-Bindu Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 I find the stability of the soundstage to be very important to my listening. Very little grates on me as much as following a note through it's extension somewhere in the soundstage only to have it drop/clunk/slap back into the box of the speaker. I suspect the recording and the room are mostly responsible for this annoying phenomenon. I've noticed a similar problem in my RF-3's when a sound goes from the diaphragms to the horn. It's not obvious, and it only happens once in a long while, but it certainly pisses me off. This is one of the reasons I'm considering going away from Klipsch. I haven't had a chance to really listen to a fully horned (or even something like the Heresy's) speaker yet, so maybe I'll give the Heresy's or Scala's a chance before moving on. When are Heresy's gonna be available again? ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin S Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 Heresy's have been available all along. ------------------ L/C/R: Klipsch Heresy II Surround: Klipsch RS-3 Subwoofers: 2 HSU-VTF-2 Pre/Pro/Tuner: McIntosh MX-132 AMP: McIntosh MC-7205 DVD: McIntosh MVP-831 CD Transport: Pioneer PD-F908 100 Disc Changer Turntable: Denon DP-72L Cassette: Nakamichi BX-1 T.V. : Mitsubishi 55905 SAT/HDTV: RCA DTC-100 Surge Protector: Monster Power HTS-5000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prana-Bindu Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 A phone call to my dealer just revealed that. My mistake.... I noticed the Heresy's are rated down to 50hz. Do most people use a sub with them? I'm satisfied with the bass in my RF-3's, but I don't know if I want to lose bass extension. I don't really want to have to get a sub, either (expensive!!). ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted August 18, 2001 Share Posted August 18, 2001 Let me try this thread again, for the fifth time ... Prana, I think a sub is required for music below 50Hz - it helps with music, movies and the image, firepinch, lest you get the wrong impression, soundstage is very important to me and horns do it great. Sitting in front of a fine sounding stereo system with a clearly defined holographic image of a song bird right there in front of your ears, is an intoxicating experience. It is the ultimate test of a musical system. It is real or is it is Memorex? I have tried all sorts of tricks to show off my simple two-channel system; high recording quality CDs, Jurassic Park dinosaurs, airplane landings and the guests favorite music. But now my tactic is simple. I sit them down, just like I do, turn out the lights, just like I do, play something serene, like Diana Krall, and ask them if they see a sonic image out in front of them just like I do. Guests always say that they do, but more importantly, they seem to be more impressed with my system. Thats the good news, fire pinch (is candle snuff your brother?). The bad news is that most stereo speakers can do this feat when properly set-up and tweaked (in the fashion that cousin Prana suggests). Even my sisters little Infinity speakers could image a female vocalist when pulled away from the walls and set upon a pair of kitchen chairs (I was showing off). The bad news is that once outside of the incredible mid-range of big old horns and high-end speakers, and a recording using both channels to center the sound, the illusion falls away. Acoustic instruments will image well, but electronic ones not as well. Owing to the incredible dynamic range of Klipschs big old horns, dynamic instruments like pianos and drums can come very close to sounding live. That is why we are horny audiophiles. Because horns come closer for a fraction of the cost - than any other combination of speaker and amplifier I have ever heard. (But no, I can not say that I have heard a lot just what the dealers call high-end). But the speaker set-up has to be right. You have to keep inching them this way, and that way, to find and then widen and deepen your sweet spot. Even Consumer Reports, which does not see any difference in CD players, (sorry, Tjoeb, McIntosh and Rotel) says that most speakers sound best 3 to 4 feet from the front and side walls. Ergo, the incredible popularity of 5.1 way home theaters. These 6-channel systems nail the center image down with a speaker in the middle, without dragging the side speakers to the middle of the room. The amplifier quality may be very important, sprocket, my friend. I do not know. I think that dynamic range may play an equally important role. Hence the emphasis that Prana and other tweaking audiophiles place on damping and darkening the backgrounds of their systems. I thought my big old horns imaged great when I was drove them with rusty Dynaco ST-70s (EL-84 tubes), a harsh Carver 1.5 amp (750 dirty watts per channel) and Pioneer Class A reference amp. I do know that my charming little antediluvian tube amps did change the placement of my speakers (I think I toed them out a fraction of an inch). ------------------ big old Cornwalls, Bottlehead 2A3 Paramour tube amps, Dynaco series II tube pre-amp, Rotel CD player, KSW200 & LF10 subs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprocket Posted August 18, 2001 Share Posted August 18, 2001 Very well said Coiln.. I'll add this one thing. When you ask your friends to close their eyes and try to point to the location of speakers, I wagering they can not. The soundstage spreading out in front of them holds only the location of the instruments and Diana Krall. The speakers have disappeared and the MAGIC of the soundstage has them open mouthed with their chin on the floor, Embarrassed Diana will see them that way. I have several sets of speakers. Among the horns are the Klipsch speakers, Corns and ksf 8.5's. They both disappear so nicely with my flea powered tube amp. This magic just never as good with my solidstate stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire pinch Posted August 19, 2001 Author Share Posted August 19, 2001 oh yeah! All of u seem to tell that klipsch horns produce a pretty good soundstage. But you know, for me, sound quality is more important than soundstage. And you told me that horns are better for realistic sounds like piano, drum? I went to a Klipsch dealer last week and i listened to Klipsch RF-3 towers. Wow! Beautifull sounding! But i dunno... i find that the highs are a little bit too "harsh" to my ears... I own presently a set of Paradigm loudspeakers (Monitor3) and guess what, i brang them with me at the store to make a good comparison between them and the RF3s. I find that my Monitor3 is so much less dynamic but to my ears, they produce a richer (ah... a little bit) sound in many music styles. I was so much impressed by the dyanmic of Klipsch RF-3 that i want absolutely to own them! I tell to myself... maybe, you must break them many days before they begin to sound better... I like techno, dance, rock, punk, ska and i think that RF-3 can be so monstruous in my bedroom. I like their SLAM! SLAM! eheh! I would like to own them one day, but i want to make sure that they can sound as good as my Monitor3 after 1 or 2 months... or even better. So it's why i asked you is the soundstage good with horns? I want quality sound, BASS chest pounding, DYNAMICS, reallistic drum... But i want also a very good soundstage or IMAGING... ! YAYAYA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted August 19, 2001 Share Posted August 19, 2001 fire p., for your type music especially, u may wanna check out the recently discontinued legends, f.e., the klf-30s. going price for new now down under $1k/pr. could also check out the new rf-5 or 7, but they'll cost u more. ------------------ Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C7, Cornwall I (rear) Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer Monsterbass 400 sub interconnect/Monster MCX-2 biwire & Z1 cable Marantz SR-8000 receiver Sony DVP-C650D 5-disk cd/dvd player Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr Technics dual cassette deck Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2100 digital cable box Boa's Listenin Lounge: Klipsch RF-3, RC-3 Monster MCX-1 Biwire Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975) Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3 Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge rock on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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