Is the soundstage with klispch horns poor?

[sunnysal]

I have had many, many speakers over the years. My K-horns provide my the best aural images I have had to date...deep and wide images appear from almost all my recordings...regards, tony

[WMcD]

It was a pleasure to meet Dave and his family. Also his magnificent collections of recordings. Many fine 78s, CDs loaded on the computer, and his own recordings at a piano recital.

He just installed the new for him K-Horns. It became apparent he's spent years on source material and is now getting to the long deferred speaker issue and is loving the K-Horns.

On the phone, Dave had advised he had them in a "bedroom". Of course, it turned out this is a Texas size bedroom. A magnificently large room with windows looking out to the yard.

We ran a few experiments with the pre-amp set to mono on stereo recordings (at one time accidental) and also listening to Count B 78s. Really gave me an appreciation for the media when a master, Dave, is running the show.

You must remember that this was a very large room with the K-Horns in the corners. The room was symetrical. With a mono setting or recording, I didn't find a phantom center image. Also, on stereo recordings, there was a "hole in the middle" and not quite the imaging I'd like. I thought the symetry would have helped avoid this.

My belief is that this is not a "horn" issue. Rather, the wide spread of the two speakers just will not allow a center phantom image in mono, and obviates any center stage in stereo. This is consistent with PWK's writings. So no surpise, I realize in retrospect. I hope I didn't hurt Dave's feelings.

I do get a center image with the Forte II and Quartets. However, they are not as widely spaced by any means.

I have a home made K-Horns and bigger Belle in my sister's garage. The Belle is fed with a mixing circuit. For the most part, without the center speaker, there is not a good central image. With it, some recordings are uncanny.

Dave is contemplating a center channel speaker and I'm quite confident he'll be very pleased when that comes on line.

Dave, thanks for sharing your system and Texan hospitality. Next time I have to get you to the garage to show off my system.

Regards,

Gil

[Mallette]

Certainly no hurt feelings here. If you aren't learning, you aren't living.

Not so sure it is the spacing. When I was testing the little Fraziers that are now in the rear, I had them in the same corners up on a set of floor-standing Advent Lauretes. When playing 78's, there was an almost unnerving phantom center image that was apparent even to non-audiophiles. As you will recall, these speakers are quite small.

So I still do not know the answer to the question posed by the thread. However, I do know what PWK said in point 7 of the 8Card. Perhaps, as he was dedicated to horns, he simply did not address other types of speakers which might well produce an image with only two.

Having Gil over was an eye opener. It is rare that I've had educated ears in the house, and I hope to do so more often. One needs an objective listener from time-to-time, as I suspect the brain adapts to whatever you are hearing unless someone else whose opinion you respect pulls away the curtain.

I am certainly looking forward to being rid of the HK Citation. I've become tired of its edgy sound. I only had the ST-70 hooked up for about half an hour, but that was enough to recognize its superior qualities even though it is in unmodified 35 year old condition. Unfortunately, that condition also meant that the left channel began to fade away and I decided to take it off line until it can be rebuilt properly rather than risk some cap popping 110 through it or something.

Thanks again for the ear, Gil. Hope you can make it back sometime. On the 10th, I'll have between 6 and 10 good Klipsch forum ears over and perhaps will learn even more!

Dave

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David A. Mallett

Average system component age: 30 years.

Performance: 21rst Century

[MTklipschguy]

Hi,

I have Forte 2's which I am tri-amping with an active crossover & tube amps (see my post in 'odds and mods') and FWIW, I think these designs can image with the best of them, within a sane budget. Sure, the Wilson watt/puppy setup was amazing, but the cost.. gasp. I've found that proper setup is very important with these - a few feet from the back wall is a good start - puttying the back of the horns as well. But removing the crossover caused the biggest 'improvement' in the soundstage - primarily depth and verticality. Also in the ability to discern individual instruments, etc. even in complex passages. Tube monoblocks help too. Horns are a great way to go.

-pete-

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Pete

[Lone Palm]

I have my LaScalas stuffed into the corners toed in at 45 degrees. When I close my eyes I can point to the placement of intruments and/or voices in the mix as if they were in the room. The same was true when my Heresys were the main front speakers. INMHO Klipsch is absolutly the best in accuracy, dynamic range,and imaging. Don't use or want sub. Never heard one sound natural. Remember, unless you are listening to a pipe organ there is very little musical content below 50 hrz. Don't need unatural,boomy,throbbing bass.

[Mallette]

As a Khorn owner, moving the speakers around is not an option. My room is about 15X26. The speakers are on the long wall. The sound is, of course, awesomely accurate, especially piano and the hard stuff. Bass is accurate to the lowest organ pipes I have in source material, which includes some Telarc DD and the like. There is rarely an image in the startling, 3D sense. I am reasonably certain that a center speaker would change this situation. Unfortunately, my audio budget is maxed for a while, and though I have a significant inventory of speakers, not a one of them is efficient enough to be heard...not even with your ear directly in front of a driver. In fact, I connected a center speaker retired from my HT setup and had to use a headphone across the leads just to be satisfied there was a signal at all. As my center (and rear) channels are passive from a Dyna Quadaptor circuit, extra amplification is not an option.

Now, I'd like to pose something of a hypothetical analysis of PWK's point 7 of the 8Card. Since we all know:

1. Excellent imaging is possible from two speakers.

2. PWK was a genius.

then he was either wrong or we are out of context.

Here is my thought. The 8Card deals only with horn-loaded systems, and PWK considered any other type (including his own systems not 100% horn loaded) to be a compromise. Since the corner horn was what he considered to be the perfect speaker, the 8Card primarily references same and the logic and issues discussed therein likewise.

>He insisted the horns be placed on the long wall.

Suggested reason why: Only one sweet spot is produced by corner horns properly placed. The closer together the speakers, the closer to the speakers this angle occurs. Since the farther from big horns, the better, long wall placement. There may have been other minor, but signifcant thinking such as that seating would often be require right in the center of a short wall placement, and the speaker projected image would actually cross from behind this point. While a good stereo image would probably occur at a single, small point, it would be very touchy and diminish the commercial appeal of the already not-easy-to-get-next-to beasties.

>He states uncategorically that a center channel is required.

If you accept the above, the speaker placement (in my case over 20') is unlikely to produce an accurate stereo image. In certain rooms, it might, but in most cases probably not. The cure: a center speaker to fill in the gap.

The above is simply a hypothesis. Like theologists, some of us consider the 8 Cardinal Rules to be the canons of our belief. When what is written there conflicts with experience, we must try to determine PWK's logic and assumptions in order to avoid spiritual distress.

Any of the Old Hope School care to comment (or anyone else).

Dave

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David A. Mallett

Average system component age: 30 years.

Performance: 21rst Century

[lynnm]

Generally speaking the distance between your speakers and from your primary listening position to each of your speakers should be equal - ie. an equilateral triangle.

I suspect you are right in thinking that your speakers are too widely separated to give an accurate soundstage in that room without a centre speaker as in theory - Your sweet spot would need to be approximately 25' from the Khorns and your room is not nearly that wide.

Would you be able to place your horns in the corners of the shorter wall until such time as you are able to afford a suitable centre speaker?

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It is meet to recall that the Great Green Heron rarely flies upside down in the moonlight - (Foo Ling ca.1900)

[Mallette]

So why do you figure that PWK said ALWAYS the long wall?

Anyway, I do not have available corners on the short wall. Guess I'll need to pray for a lonely Heresy to appear on Ebay...

Interestingly, I was standing at my preamp after putting on a 78 and switched to mono. The sound suddenlly imaged right in the middle of my ears. Startling. From my listening position, such image diffused.

Dave

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David A. Mallett

Average system component age: 30 years.

Performance: 21rst Century

[lynnm]

"So why do you figure that PWK said ALWAYS the long wall?"

I do not know for sure but I suspect that he was thinking in terms of recreating the soundstage that one would expect to find in a theatre or concert hall.

I would not presume to second guess PWK on anything relating to the Klipschorn,(or anything else for that matter), but I suspect that were he still among us he would likely agree that there are practical limits to anything and that there comes a point where generally recognised truths no longer apply.

If your long wall was say 20' long and the room were 15' wide then you would likely be able to sit on a loveseat across from the horns and get a decent approximation of the soundstage you desire even though you would be somewhat shy of the equilateral triangle of speakers and listening position. Unfortunately that is not the case as the corners are 26' apart and you are forced to sit too close to the speakers to achieve proper imaging.

You might wish to consider the solution that PWK himself used in his own home. He had false corners built -(or more likely built them himself) - so that he could place his horns anywhere he damned pleased. It might make fiscal and sonic sense to place one horn in the real corner and place the second with its false corner 15' - 20' away. Building a single 4' false corner for your horn is likely a less expensive proposition than purchasing a single Heritage line speaker -assuming you could find a single in any reasonable time frame

This message has been edited by lynnm on 06-03-2002 at 08:06 PM

[pzannucci]

For more moderately placed speakers, 16' or less apart, the driver matching seems to be the largest deciding factor of whether the speakers image well or not.

As we know, the mono image is done by having the "exact" output from both speakers. Change the output on right or left and the image moves around and isn't stable.

What may happen with horn speakers is that most horns and drivers are not identical matches in response (pro speakers just to get loud) which causes the soundstage and imaging to suffer.

If you notice, the speakers that image the best are the ones with burned in drivers and then matched per their respective response curves. Maybe that is why some Klipsch speakers image better than others - closer match?

The response curve of the speaker seems to decide if you get consistant imaging with little shift (not to count shift based on crossovers and driver placement that causes certain aberrations in the sound). The other thing that seems to count is proximity to driver early reflection. When I put foam around my Morel MDT-33 tweeters on my home-builts, the sound stage collapses. We know that most horns have internal reflections so this doesn't help. I think that this is why many people also prefer 2" to 1 3/8" throats in horns.

Just some observations.

Peter Z.