Piano Black La Scala's

[michael hurd]

If you are going with a satin black... you can most likely get away with 220-240 grit for finishing off the primer. ML Campbell makes some nice pre and post catalyzed lacquers. I have a gallon of their black Clawlock primer and Krystal Clear for another sub project. ( for a friend ) This is their post catalzyed finishes and result in a very hard, durable surface.

[tommyboy]

OUTSTANDING job! They look absolutely beautiful

[White_Hawk]

fantastic work! beautiful to behold =D

[Jeff_R]

Good to know that I can stick with my 220. Not being a great spray painter, I forsee myself sand a bit on the color coats for errors. If Ihave to sand my color coats, will I want to up the grit to 500 or higher there?

Jeff

[michael hurd]

First off, what are you shooting exactly, a single stage enamel or a satin lacquer? If it is a lacquer you can get away with 220 on an orbital ( should have specified that ) and 320 by hand. How many coats are you looking at putting on the speakers?

If it is a lacquer, I would put minimum 2 coats on, let it flash for at least 2 hours, sand it with 320 again orbital ( or 400 by hand ) at this point. Blow it down, tack the surface really well with a tack rag. ( very important ) One to two more coats and you are done. Most lacquers are very forgiving.

[Jeff_R]

I am shooting lacquer. Even the GSW (Sherwin WIlliams off name) Bushwacker primer was lacquer, and was not supposed to be thinned. I am sanding 220 by hand with my good old rubber blocks at this point. I do not, purposely, put any weight of my arm or hand into the sanding, just the weight of the block. It takes me at least 30 minutes to sand one side because I am not pressing. I just dry sand, clap the blocks together to get the dust off, and sand more.

As to how many coats. I am sanding on the third coat of primer now. I have uncovered no wood, although I have uncovered a lot of white primer, and some areas where the wood is trying to show through. I gleaned this from the from the original post in this thread where he discussed how long it took to prime, sand, prime using 2 gallons to remove and wood grain and be flat. My indicator of flat is no "freckles" below the totally uniform scratches I sand into the paint with the 220. If it is uniformally scuffed, with no wood, then I have obtained the "flatness" i am trying for. If the sanding results on this third coat continue through all surfaces of both speakers, I will shoot one more light coat, then sand everything with 320 by hand. I do no want to use my orbital, there is no physical strain in all this sanding as I let the paper do the work.

As to color. I plan to shoot a few or several coats of lacquer. As to sanding between color coats, only to remove the inevetible paint errors I make. And then with 500 or maybe 1200. I also have some polishing pads for use on plastic that go into the 4000 or so range. I have 3 grades of those.

As to clear? I am undecided and would welcome pro/con information on clear coating. The need to, the reasons not to,etc.

My back ground is as a carpenter, frame. cornice, cabinets, doors, base & case, a little millwork, mechanic, and now NDT inspection. I am very good at refinishing my own furniture, but have never attempted removing the grain, and am a total noob at sparay painting as in automotive quality.

All for now

Jeff

[kaiser SET say]

Thanks I went thru lots of 1500 grit! The paint is PPG DCC 1967 Ford,Raven Black with 6 coats of DCC Clear. I used two gallons of ureathane fill primer on two speakers! Here's a pic of the front.

All I can say is get back Grand Piano's which is exactly what your beautiful gloss reminds me of. You should be very proud of your end result[]

[whatever55]

I had a '70 cuda that I painted black... No clear just color... with lots of sanding... It had great dept.... not a wet look. You could place a yardstick at a right angle to the finish and read the end..... clearly.

[Jeff_R]

I have noted I can see reflections clearly even in primer as I get them sanded evenly to just the 220. I can just imagine sanding between color coats with the 1200, or even the 2500, 3500, & 4500 plastic polishing grit disks I have. I am unsure of the acutal values, but they are the ones used to polish passenger aircraft outer side windows to a perfect clarity. I picked a several feet of 3 grades up at a store that used to sell surplus equipment and furnishing for an aircraft overhaul facility. Why these polishing pads ended up there I don't know, but it was like $5.00 for the lot years ago so I grabbed them.

On another note I am using my orbital to sand this layer of primer as suggested. I tried the orbital on the back of one, and it was a lot less back breaking. I exposed some wood, but another coat of primer is going on around noon today. I really didn't have a choice as to how far I sanded. If I see the unscratched "freckles" that is showing me low areas in the primer.

The original poster of this thread really had it nailed as to how uneven plywood of even a cabinet grade is when you are trying to get an entirely flat smooth, surface. I would estimate I will use 3 or 4 dozen sheets of 220 just getting this all flat and smooth, during this priming phase. Remember, I get 4 cuts for sanding blocks out of one sheet, so that is over 50 sanding pads. If I accomplish that "flatness" with the primer, then it is all on my ability to lay down the color smoothly and avoid any errors in th ecolor application, or as much as I can to eleminate the need of any color sanding/polishing.

There's the challenge, I am not, in any manner, an accomplished automotive spray paint guy. I have been asking questions, watching the folks shoot paint on youtube, and reading the forums. I have 3 days of mid 60 degree weather coming.

Yes, I am having to do this in my driveway. So far nothing has landed on or blown into the paint. I am in Oklahoma, so having a windless time frame to shoot is also a factor, and amatter of luck.

It is not possible to do this in my garage. I am going to pick up a half piece of sheetrock today to practice the black on tomorrow probably.

Gotta go sand now, the sun is up and it is 40 degrees.

Jeff

[Jeff_R]

Back off angle shot of both speakers 3rd coat of primer sanded. The white and the little areas of wood exposed show you what the originator of this thread was talking about as to how uneven wood is. If they weren't splotchy white/grey/wood at this point, they would not be flat. I am over 60 hours of sanding, repair, epoxy coating, sanding epoxy off, primer, sand primer, sand, and ready to primer again into this project as of now. So this is a huge project as to that type of labor if you are thinking about doing this.

Here is the front view of one, I am quite happy with my primer coverage in the most difficult area to paint and sand. The foam sanding blocks allowed me to sand every surface and I then went over the area again with my hard rubber block knocking down runs and other imperfections that the foam blocks leave high.

The front of the other speaker.

And finally an off angle shot of the front and left sides. I have photos but didn't load them up showing where I sealed the stamped S/N and USA on the back of the speaker with epoxy, and tape off each time. I have been working 2 hours this morning, which isn't bad for what I had left to sand. Risking the non-directional orbital sander really sped things along. I also found the foam sanding blocks a great help on the radiused edges.

Time to go back out and check my buckets for serviceable condition or not. If not, off to Lowes to buy 3 more, then back for the fourth, and hopefully last coat of primer. 60 degrees, humidity seems low, bright sunshine, and a bit on the breezy side 10 to 15 mph. I am saving thw wipe down until just before I mix paint.

It's going to be fun.

Jeff

[Jeff_R]

Well, the wife informed me when I called that she had heard 10 to 20 mph winds. I believe they under estimated the wind velocity. But that's okay, the learning curve is in full swing now, and it starts at 90 degrees relative to where I was standing.

This 5 Star primer states 1:1 on the thinning. The guy at the paint store spoke about 2:1. So I listened closely and followed the directions on the can at 1:1, which would be a great ratio if I were shooting texture on sheetrock. The gun will only shoot in a small circle pattern at that mix ratio, and has a bit of a "splatter" pattern as opposed to laying out. So that is how coat 4 went, plus one hair blew in from Kansas and landed on top. I got that fixed. I thinned to nearly 2:1. Don't misunderstand, I am not blaming my el-cheapo HVLP guns. I have to learn to move at the right speed, when the paint is thin enough to lay out a nice pattern. At nearly 2:1 I get a nice wet surface that flows out pretty evenly.

There they are waiting for the 4th coat. You can see the evil leaves laying about doing nothing. They waited for me to begin to paint before swirling around causing no end of problems on the 4th coat.

That's a picture after 5 coats. I am going to have to fix a few very small areas from the evil sycamore leaves.

A shot across the tops. I will be sanding everywhere again. I will use the foam blocks, until I hit areas with runs. There I will block sand the runs smooth, and scuff with the foam block.

There's a realatively close shot showing the difficulty I have where you see light areas even better. Told you I was anoob a automotive type painting. Give me abrush to cut in on trim, and a roller, I can't be beat. Me handing a spray gun is a different situation. Next round of primer these will be back on the furniture dolly so I can keep the side I am shooting oriented towards the sunlight. Shooting in the shade is tough. I don't have to concern myself with the lower radius any longer, so that lets me go back to the furnitue dolly to spin the speaker.

I am fairly confident that I will only have some touch up to do where I have a few runs, several thin spots, and where I have removed gymph that blew into the paint leaving a mark.

That's it for the day. It was way too windy to paint, and I am too sore now to do anything but take a shower and get the paint out of my nose. Yeah, I wear a particle mask, I just forgot to put it back on the 5th coat. It's that learning curve thing again.

If anyone is thinking about doing this, I sure hope you can get the project in your garage. I would have to fill my driveway, then plastic sheet off an area, then paint, pull down the plastic, and move everything back in. That would not be something I could likely accomplish in a fall/winter day. I may be hauling these to afriend shop to paint the color.

Jeff

[michael hurd]

General rule of thumb: Move at about a foot a second when painting, and keep the gun parallel to surface. Most new painters tend to heel the gun or swing it side to side, heavy coating in the middle and light at the edges.

Looking good so far, it takes a while, I know. Best thing to use is a large block with 180 in the beginning a 'long' board sander. Also, make sure you are using a sandpaper that is made for automotive paints. Using anything else will result in poor results, slow going, possible clogging as well. Autobody paper is coated to prevent clogging. Flint, garnet or anything else is not appropriate for sanding paint, primer and body filler.

If you are still getting runs, you may need a faster evaprorating thinner for the colder temperatures.

[Jeff_R]

Thanks Micahel for the tips. I am there on the technique, not heel toeing, but I am really going to have to get up to speed on my sweep. I looked them over after posting yesterday and noted that this appears to be one of those situations where th edigital camera exagerates. Those lighter areas look all the same to the eye when rotated around in the sunlight. So I am better off there than I thought from the pictures. These foam blocks are from Harbor Freight, and I was pretty sure they were for paint, I will go double check. I have been dragging my air hose around blowing them off a lot as I go. These are 220.

I saw the long boards, and figured that would be the real deal for th eultimate in "flatness", but I didn't see any paper for them. There is an automotive paint place right up the road a mile, so maybe I will ease in there. Now I am thinking I am on the last coat, except to touch up some error where crud blew in leaving a tiny marred spot. Today the wind is like 2 miles per hour, but the high is only going to be 58. Now they often miss on the temperature, and we get a much warmed day than expected. I hope this is one of those days. If it gets warm, 60 +, and the wind is near zero, I am going to do the touch up. As soon as the sun gets up I am hauling these out to the driveway to sand. They are so very very close.

If there weather doesn't make 60+ I will go get an 18 inch board ( I am suddenly seeing more primer) and my masonite for building my grills. I will be getting the masonite anyway. The wife and I talked about doing the housework this AM then building the grills. I have to go out on the net and find how how large a copper came is available. "Came" as in came around stained glass. I plane to trim my grill in that product, or bend some copper up myself if I can't find 1/2 inch x 1/4 inch + x 1/2 inch copper came.

Jeff

[Groomlakearea51]

Outstanding work and commentary.

Mike & Jeff: you guys are really experts in your areas of expertise; paint & wood respectively, and it's both interesting and very informative to see how each other's skills complement the project. The types of materials, paint types, etc. are very interesting and the techniques you guys are discussing area a "mother lode" of information for me, at least.

As for learnng "resources", unfortunately the insurance industry and environmentalists have pretty much wiped out the old body shops and cabinet shops that used lacquer in any form. It's now illegal for auto body shops to even purcgase lacquer. Even the cabinet folks are almost completely shifted to urethanes as coatings. Our automotive folks around here are now pretty useless in the information department unless it has to do with bondo and a quick coat of whatever. Most of our body shops simply replace the metal and shoot a can of whatever the factory specified as the OEM color.

The true craft skills in sanding, surfacing and applying lacquer, etc is becoming a lost art form.

Great thread, great posts, and best of luck as you go!![Y]

[Marvel]

I have to go out on the net and find how how large a copper came is available.

Jeff,

I see that you can get copper came in 6 foot lengths, of differing widths. Unless you buy in bulk, they usually have it cut in shorter lengths.

It is looking good, and I like the idea for the came trim.

Bruce

[Jeff_R]

Hey Brother, I am a beginner at HVLP spray painting, but am paying very close attention to Michael, and gleaned what I could from the orignator of this threads task description. All the same I appreciate the compliment as to my effort to put out what I am doing step by step for critque and assesment by other who have done, or are considering doing similar projects. I am an information sponge.

I do believe I did all the right things as to repair, although using 2 part epoxy (Devcon) for repairs and Famowood 2 part epoxy finish coating to seal and attempt to rebond/fill splits was a bit over the top. I took these all the way back to square edges, and then decided that a 1/4 inch radius n all corners just made better sense from a durability standpoint. I don't think the old plywood and epoxy could take much of a hit, or even a rub, and I would be back repairing. Anyway, that was why I routered around the edges.

Most folks will use bondo. I was watching a New This Old House and the guy was explaining why bondo was a mistake on wood. The guy doing the show stated Bondo has a different expansion rate than wood, and can crack off, while epoxy has the same expansion rate. He had connected two caulking guns together, and could dispense Part A & Part B caulking gun sized tubes equally to mix his epoxy for repair. Using epoxy is such a pain as compared to bondo. I found you have to get right after epoxy, the putty type, and rasp/slice the excess off ASAP. Because epoxy is a sandpaper clogging paint in the whats-it. I wanted to go epoxy paint, but have neither the skills, waterfall paint booth, or equipment to mess with it.

Off to pick up an 18 inch flat sanding board and some 320 grit to check flatness of these boxes.

Jeff

So far this am; I

went to Wholesale Auto Paint and picked up a 9 inch board, and some 320 paper. Kind of a give and take thing here as to board length. Harbor Freight had a 16 inch board for like $3.99, but no paper. Wholesale paint had long boards, for $35, YIKES!! That made my hand cramp up and I couldn't get my wallet open. But Wholesale did have 320 grit paper, and a 9 inch board. So I went with that to try it out. The 9 inch board is aworld of differance for overall flat than my 6 inch blocks. I have one top and one side sanded, just beautiful, but there will be another coat(s) of primer. I have just a bit of wood showing. I could leave some white primer, I don't think that would be an issue with black paint, but no bare wood under the color.

Now, another paint wrinkle/option. The guy at wholesale was telling me I can shoot his polyurethane over my lacquer primer. You cannot go the other way. He is suggesting polyurethane because he states I will get my lacquer shot, polished, and be happy, for a few months. Then polshing again. Now that is likley more relative to cars than static indoor items like speakers, furniture etc. But he has me wondering if I would be better off with polyurethane than lacquer as the color.

Feel free to chime in. No painting today, dry, clear , windy cold weather in Tulsa Oklahoma.

[michael hurd]

You can put polyurethane over older lacquers that have evaporated 100%, and sealed with a polyurethane primer surface that can be applied over a lacquer. I would not suggest doing it over fresh lacquer primer, as you most likely will have problems in the future. ( must check manufacturer for compatability )

I would stick with the lacquer, as it is more forgiving, albeit it requires more coats to build a film thickness like a polyurethane. ( solids content ) A lacquer can be anywhere from 50 - 80 % solvents, whereas a poly is typically 25%-35%. This means that for every coat, you get more deposited on the surface ( higher build ) with a poly than a lacquer, as the lacquer has more solvent in it.

If you were starting from square one, I would have suggested that you could have used a polyurethane primer and topcoat instead.

[Jeff_R]

Bruce,

Thanks for the info on the copper. 6 feet should wrap one grill as they will be less than 2 feet wide. I have the top, and both sides sanded to ultimate flatness with 320 on my 9 inch block as of now. I am using the faom 220 blocks to do the 1/4 inch radiused edges. I am going to upload a photo in a few minutes and attach to this replay. The even sun glare will give an idea of how flat this side now is. I must get one even coat of primer down to avoid exposing epoxied plywood.

I am dry sanding, I refuse to get water anywhere near this plywood. So I sand for 30 seconds or so, the wipe the black on the terry cloth towel you see on my leg. Cleans the paint dust right off it, give it a whack, and the terry cloth lint flies off.

As to using Bondo. I did use bondo very sparingly where my epoxy had imperfections or pinholes/scratches I wanted filled. What you might notice in the first photgraphs are the huge delaminated areas I pulled off, and repaired using epoxy. As to using bondo versus epoxy, I was only passing along information from the program I mentioned. Now that guy was working oun outdoor siding or something as I recall. Indoors, on speakers, in a controlled enviroment, I can't see differance for smoothing a surface out. I would say both products have their applications in a project like this, relative to the purposes they are suited for.

For repairing the delaminated area and voids, I chose epoxy. Also, remember I used Famowood 2 part epoxy to cover the enire speaker surface trying to press into the outer layer. That is the "one coat equals 60 coats of varnish stuff." I think as to this attempt to reattach where the laminate sounded hollow, there was no other product I could think of for this effort. I tap tested both of these speaker cabinets listening for delaminations. Tap testing is a common method of checking for delamination in honeycomb structures on aircraft panels. Instead of getting a sharp "tap" in return, the return sound will be either an obviously loose dead sound, or a hollow sound. I have used this tap test technique as a mechanic and as an Inspector on commerical aircraft since 1983.

As my choices were limited as to regluing the outer layer, with any measureable amount of success, I tried the Famowood. After the Famowood was set up enough to sand, I sanded everywhere and tap tested again. I had one small corner I had to drill about a dozen #50 drill bit holes into, and re-epoxy. After that dried and I sanded it, it was sound and hard. Working with Famowood is like trying to push 90 weight gear oil that also happens to be glue. This is th eproduct on bars, or tables, with a 1/8 inch deep clear coat. But I did it, and there is no surface on the cabinets that is unsound. It was only some areas, mainly on top and the bottom of one speaker, and then limited to the outer layer anyway. No internal layers of the plywood core were damage, or I would have dismantled and built from scratch.

Which might have been easier that all the extra sanding I am doing. Dryer emergency, no heat. Ihave to go get a thermal over heat switch. Game delay.

jeff

[76scalas]

I started this thread. I have since done another pair of Scalas and a Designer Heresy for my son.Getting ready to do two more pairs of Scalas. One pair for my other son (Yeah, we like La Scalas[]) and another pair for my daughter and her husband. Bondo works fine. I've used it for years on wood. Think about this, it's used on cars where the expansion/contraction is much greater than wood. The advantage is it's quick dry time,sandability,it will never crack out and it holds on so you can repair those smashed corners.

[Jeff_R]

I am glad you jumped back in. Now I can say that I am following your project, really admire your work,and am really having a hard time deciding between Satin Black, as per a stock finish, or going all out with gloss black and clear coats. Also the paint guy is talking up polyurethane as opposed to lacquer.

Jeff