Lutz Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 Hey all, need experianced advice im pretty green...my setup is Yamaha HTR-5790 for home theater, have a Behringer 2500 on order now, and running the KLF 30's. I like home theater but im mainly after loud, distortion free music (which is why i ordered the Behringer). My question is i know subwoofers greatly improve the home theater experiance but how are they for pure music experiance? From what im gathering it looks like mostly DJ's and small bands use them for big performances which i do neither, are they meant for home listening? Any advice greatly appreciated. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 Not to get you down, but the Behringer ep2500 has an input sensitivity of 1.23 volts(pg 3 of manual), and the maximum output of the yamaha receiver is 1 volt (pg 89 of manual). No matter how hard you try, you will never achieve full output on the Behringer amplifier. An amplifier with an input voltage sensitivity of 1 volt is a Qsc PLX 1202. If you substituted an amplifier such as a Crown CE 1000, with the service option .775 volt sensitivity, you would be overdriving the input of the amp with the receiver. Again, say you substituted the QSC PLX 3402 amplifier, it requires an input voltage of 1.9 volts to reach rated power. Using less voltage, means that using the yamaha as the driving unit, even at the maximum volume setting, you will be reaching distortion and clippiing the preamp stage in ther receiver before getting appreciable output of the pro power amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz Posted February 11, 2005 Author Share Posted February 11, 2005 Michael, youll never know what your reply means to me heh, in one fell swoop you managed to bum me out and enlighten me at the same time which im greatful for. I guess this is why guys like me who like the sound but arent savvy in the technical side of it should ask before i buy. But seriously im glad you informed me of this, hopefully i can find a reasonable solution Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 A quality SUBwoofer will definately improve the experience, but if you are thinking about a "pro" subwoofer, they are designed for high output to around 35 - 40 hz, rolling off below that. Not really a subwoofer that will play the lowest octaves, like a high quality unit designed for the home. Most main speakers, like your KLF-30's will reach down to 30 hz with decent power, there is not a lot of music with information below that, but some classical ( pipe organ ), electronica ( synthesized bass ) and some rock has content below 30 hz. Frequencies below 20 hz are not heard, rather they are a visceral expereince that you feel. Extension down to 20-23 hz can definately improve the experience for some types of music as was stated earlier, especially pipe organ that can dip as low as 16 hz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 In my opinion yes. I have RF7s and always felt that a subwoofer helped them. RF7s and an RSW12 make for a fantastic 2 channel experiance in my opinion. RF7s are nice, but to my ears they just needed a little help in the bottom end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 I have Khorns with tubes and feel that the right sub makes difference even with movies, even with first harmonics above 30Hz... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz Posted February 11, 2005 Author Share Posted February 11, 2005 So Mike your pretty much saying if i want max power ill have to buy another preamp that matches exactly the 1.23 input of the Behringer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shmoe Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 I agree... I own KLF-30's & have a sub also. The 30's give you quite a bit of punch without a sub, but having a sub with it as in two channel music listening, it's that much better. So get a sub... you'll be glad you did, especially when watching movies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 IMO No, not at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckears Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 When using a true subwoofer; that is, one that can reach down below 20Hz flatly, you are not only reproducing sounds from instruments that produce those low tones, you are picking up the "room cues"... harmonics (room vibrations, if you will) that give you the sense of being in the recording venue. This imparts a sense of realism (if your system is properly calibrated, and of sufficient quality to provide that "you-are-there" sound) that you are not otherwise going to obtain from speakers that fall off below 30 Hz. This blew me away when I got my 2-channel system + subwoofer set up properly, and I scrambled to find all the better recordings I had that "took me to the performance". This is the true pursuit of the audiophile, and to claim that a subwoofer is not necessary just because most musical instruments do not produce music tones below a certain frequency is completely ignorant of the concept of sub-harmonic room cues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave217 Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 subs help the sound in movies but subs are realy in my view for music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastlane Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 With just the KLF-30's in ht you will hear stuff blow up very well. With a good sub you'll FEEL stuff blow up as well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 "Not to get you down, but the Behringer ep2500 has an input sensitivity of 1.23 volts(pg 3 of manual), and the maximum output of the yamaha receiver is 1 volt (pg 89 of manual). No matter how hard you try, you will never achieve full output on the Behringer amplifier. " Gee, I'm scared. It will only drive the EP2500 1.798dB short of clipping. Lets see, the EP2500 is 1.2KW, so 1.2KW less 1.798dB is 793W. 793W is not enough for which Klipsch speaker? A properly done subwoofer improves midrange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 ---------------- On 2/12/2005 3:38:03 PM djk wrote: A properly done subwoofer improves midrange. ---------------- A fact that can never be stressed enough. It gets rather annoying when talking about subwoofers and people have the impression that I'm after the boom boom boom typical of car audio systems. Good subs vastly improve the midrange and also add the little bit of extension that makes it that more realistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz Posted February 12, 2005 Author Share Posted February 12, 2005 Plz describe "properly done" pertaining to the sub, ive never owned one before so looking for all the detail i can get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 I think I was in a similar situation to one you describe...I always thought that a subwoofer was a BAND-AID solution for not buying speakers properly...I have just now gone to home theater but I listen to 2 channel in 2 channel (well, maybe 2.1 ) I have Heresy mains with a sub (outlaw audio LFM-1) and I LOVE the sound...I was happy with the Heresys alone but the sub ADDS a nice rounding out to the package...I think you will be happy with one in your system. bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckears Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 ---------------- On 2/12/2005 5:07:53 PM Lutz wrote: Plz describe "properly done" pertaining to the sub, ive never owned one before so looking for all the detail i can get. ---------------- Most manufacturers will include set-up instructions with their subs... some (like my Hsu) will even come with a calibration disc, so that you can get the volume, phase, and placement optimal. Corners are usually a preferred location, but every listening room is different. I'm certain a lot of people run their subs a little "hot", which does nothing to take advantage of the realism a good subwoofer can provide. On the other hand, if you have it set too low (volume, that is), you will most likely end up disappointed. In either case, an SPL meter is a must when using a calibration disc, bearing in mind that the most-used meter (Radio Shack analog) has problems correctly reporting the lowest tones... I don't remember the measurements and corresponding adjustments... a Google search would probably produce a forum explanation for the phenomenon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckears Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 ---------------- On 2/13/2005 5:41:56 AM chuckears wrote: In either case, an SPL meter is a must when using a calibration disc, bearing in mind that the most-used meter (Radio Shack analog) has problems correctly reporting the lowest tones... I don't remember the measurements and corresponding adjustments... a Google search would probably produce a forum explanation for the phenomenon. ---------------- Heh.... take a look in the Technical Questions forum, and you will find a thread with a conversion chart explaining the appropriate adjustments for the lower frequencies on the RS analog meter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 ---------------- On 2/12/2005 5:07:53 PM Lutz wrote: Plz describe "properly done" pertaining to the sub, ive never owned one before so looking for all the detail i can get. ---------------- The first priority for "properly done" is to find a subwoofer with the extension you want without any of the distortion you don't like. Once you find one, then you will need to find the best location for it in the room. After that, you need to dial in the volume and phase controls such that there is a seamless transition between your mains and subwoofer(s). There is no set standard for the correct way to do any of these steps, but there are guiding principles and little tricks that can be followed. I'm sure a little searching on the forum (especially in the powered subwoofers and technical questions areas) will provide you with way more information than you'll ever need Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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