jabaker Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 Need some opinions. I have at this time RF35s and RC35 and RB35.Might like to upgrade in future to higher level Klipsch (RF7s or Heritage). What separates would sound the best w/RF35 or speaker upgrade mentioned. Considering B&K ,Parasound Halo,Outlaw and Aragon.Would probably go w/7:1 system.Thanks for all replies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.4knee Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 Mix and match to your hearts content. If I were buying though I would pick #1 and 4 #5's 1 http://www.parasound.com/halonew/c1front.asp 2 http://www.parasound.com/halonew/A51details.asp 3 http://www.parasound.com/halonew/A21details.asp 4 http://www.parasound.com/halonew/jc1front.asp 5 http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/mcprod/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=14&cat=Power+Amplifiers&prodid=1055&product=MC252 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bchild311 Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 My 2 suggestions: Rotel RMB-1095 or the Outlaw Audio 770. The 1095 is only 5.1 but gives you 200w per channel, the Outlaw will do 7.1 and is 200w/channel at 8ohms 300w/channel at 4 ohms. The Outlaw runs 1799 and is a deal. http://www.rotel.com/products/specs/rmb1095.htm http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/770.html Let us know what you decide ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 The problem with 7 channel amplifiers is that they have a difficult time driving all 7 channels simultaneously. I recommend a 5 channel amp with a stereo amp of the same brand and gain ratio. The brands under discussion all sound good with Klipsch. Which sounds best is a personal choice. The RF-7s have a very significant impedance dip in the bass frequencies. An amp that drives 2 ohm loads gives better frequency response and more defined bass with the RF-7s in my expereince. The difference has been quite remarkable. I first used a receiver on the RF-7. Then I added a 140 watt B&K amp that was stable with 4 ohm loads. There was improvement, but not as much as I had hoped. I later added a Sunfire 225x5 watt amp. There was a night and day difference. (The 200 watt B&K Reference amps would probably do a very good job as well.) I have now gone with Sunfire's Sig. Stereo amp in addition to the 5 channel amp. They are very good with low impedance loads and run nearly stone cold in an enclosed rack. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JewishAMerPrince Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 ---------------- On 2/12/2005 9:09:11 PM MrMcGoo wrote: The problem with 7 channel amplifiers is that they have a difficult time driving all 7 channels simultaneously. ---------------- Mr Magoo I'm a bit confused by that statement. I've never heard or heard of a 7 channel amp that made any channels wait while the others were being driven. If what you meant was 7 channel amps can't sustain continuous rated output simultaneously, you would be correct, although I doubt that would ever happen. You could't be in the same neighborhood, let alone the same house, let alone the same room with a decent sized amp with all channels pouring out sound in excess of 120db continuously. Just about all 7 channel amps are capable of simultaneous rated output peaks of all channels. Even so, I would be surprised if you had any eardrums left after just one peak experience like that one would be. Let me give you an example from personal experience. I have a device that measures peak current flow to my entire system. The highest peak current flow I have ever recorded was while playing Master And Commander...the cannon shots that occur frequently during the first battel occur at ear splitting SPL with my Reference 7 series in a 7000+ cu ft room. This peak current flow was 6.8 amps. Simple math (at 120 volts) tells us that the system was demanding a total of 816 watts during those peaks. If you were to subtract off the 1.3 amps for my TV and the .4 amps for my pre-pro the system amplifiers (2- 200 watter's for the mains and 5- 125watters for the center and surrounds) were drawing a total of 612 watts during those peaks. Even assuming 100% electrical efficiency, (which we all know is not possible), the combined output of all my amps was ONLY approximatly 60% of their combined delivering capacity. Of course we know that all the channels were not delivering the same power. Some were delivering more than 60% (but I doubt that it was 100%) and some were delivering less based on the program material. By the way, the first time I played that scene, a picture fell off the wall, helped of course by 900 watts of SVS subwoofer power. Do you still believe that ANYONE would need an amplifier capable of delivering rated power continuously from all channels? With Klipsch high efficiency speakers this will likely never, ever happen. Jerry Rappaport Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 Jerry, Not many 7 channel amps can play in a linear manner with all 7 channels driven on difficult material like Master and Commander. (I use it as reference material to hear how the system is responding with various components.) I do not believe that I said that the amp would blow a fuse or shut down. What I am saying is that frequency response suffers (is not linear) on the RF-7s unless the amp can easily drive the 2.8 ohm minimum impedance on the RF-7s. Not many 7 channel amps can drive all 7 channels with Master and Commander playing without a voltage drop during dynamic peaks, hence frequency response suffers as does detail. The power supply and the output devices are "challenged" by the load. For example, my Pioneer is rated at 160 watts times 7 into a six ohm load. (S&V measured the RF-7s as a 6 ohm nominal load with a 2.8 ohm minimum.) The Pioneer could deafen me at full power. However, the bass is not tight and many of the background sounds are not distinct during movies. The Pioneer weighs 65 pounds and has been confirmed independently to make rated power with all channels driven. It doesn't do well with low impedances. Some multi-channel amps, like Aragon only make rated power on three channels simultaneously due to the use of a power supply that is on the "light" side. Please remember that the amp should not have any difficulty driving the lower impedances with level voltage output. I have gone to Sunfire amps to drive my system. The Sunfire 5 and 7 channel amps in the 200 watt range both have 400 joule power supplies. (Bob Carver likes to be different in his ratings.) You spread the 400 joules over 5 channels or 7. That is why I have a 5 and a 2 channel amp. I am not the only person that has this view. There is a fellow on the S&V forum that recommends a 5 and a 2 channel amp to get to 7 channels. He is one of the two resident experts over there. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylanl Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 Just my opinion I like the Rotel gear also. If I get the cash that is the way I am going. I have also heard alot of good things about sunfire amps etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 I'm starting to think Russ really hit on a gem with that Carver Pro Z1000. I read a lot, and you can't find a single bad word about the thing. When I consider the reported high sound quality and oodles of power -- in relationship to price -- I think it might be very hard to go wrong with that one. The Z500, with 150 wpc -- is dirt cheap, and IF I were doing an HT setup -- it would be real tempting to buy a Z1000 and two Z500s. This leaves a lot of money left over to dump into a quality processor. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JewishAMerPrince Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 ---------------- On 2/12/2005 10:55:01 PM MrMcGoo wrote: Jerry, I do not believe that I said that the amp would blow a fuse or shut down. That's right, you did not. Your statement was that 7 channel amps (implying all of them) had difficulty driveing all channels simultaneously, period. This of course is not true of MOST 7 channel amps. It is certainly NOT true of the only 7 channel amp of those brands he has under consideration, the Outlaw 770 (nearly identical to the Sherborne 7 channel) which consists of 7 monoblock amps on a common chasis with a fully adequite power supply. I believe one shouldn't make such a cavelier statement to someone seeking advice without explaining it. With an explanation of what you were thinking now at hand, he can evaluate your position as opinion,(which is what it really is)rather than fact. The Pioneer could deafen me at full power. However, the bass is not tight and many of the background sounds are not distinct during movies. Unfortunatly, I've never heard a Pioneer ( even the elite variety) that has tight bass and good clarity driving any speaker at any impedance. I am not the only person that has this view. There is a fellow on the S&V forum that recommends a 5 and a 2 channel amp to get to 7 channels. He is one of the two resident experts over there. I'm sure you're not alone, we rarely are. I use a 5 channel and a 2 channel for two reasons. I like to listen to 2 channel music a lot, therefore why run 5 other "heaters" when not necessary. Secondly, most of the 7 channel amps that are worth their salt are real beasts and weigh too much for my glass shelves to handle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 Jerry, Most newcomers do not want a legthy discussion of Ohm's Law when they get an amplifier recommendation. If statements are not clear or lack explanation, they are free to ask for clarification or more detail. The Pioneer receiver that I am referring to is the VSX-59TXi. It does a very respectable job with true 8 ohm speakers. The woofer section on the RF-7s is in the vicinity of 3 ohms. The only receiver that would do a good job with RF-7s is probably the Sunfire or perhaps the new Denon 5805 tank. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JewishAMerPrince Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 To my ears the Denon sounds terrible with the RF7s, tried it last week. Typical Denon fat midrange that sounds like it has "loudness contour" on all the time. This by the way I also find true of most of the Sunfires, IMHO. If you get a chance, listen to a Rotel RSX1067 drive the RF7s ( I a/b'd it against the Denon). You'd be in for a revalation. I'm wondering why you are talking about receivers when the questionee started with a title "buying separates"? I'm sure the questionee wasn't interested in being told about ohm's law, neither was he interested in being misled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 Jerry, I am amazed that you have the intestinal fortitude to claim that I misled the newcomer when you have exactly the type of setup that I recommended. Takeing cheap shots at other member's equipment is not exactly the way to behave either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 What about the Denon 2805 or the 3805? I don't know how these would sound with Klipsch. Many reviewers have given these two big wraps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 Very happy with an Outlaw Audio 950 Processor, 7100 Amp (7 X 100w all channels driven) and LFM-1 sub to compliment the Heresys, Academy and KSF-S5 surrounds... Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 ---------------- On 2/13/2005 3:10:02 AM edwinr wrote: What about the Denon 2805 or the 3805? I don't know how these would sound with Klipsch. Many reviewers have given these two big wraps. ---------------- He was asking about separates... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 ---------------- On 2/13/2005 12:52:45 AM JewishAMerPrince wrote: Secondly, most of the 7 channel amps that are worth their salt are real beasts and weigh too much for my glass shelves to handle. ---------------- No kidding. The Sherbourn 7/2100 is hell on my back at a rather stout 100 pounds. I've taken to using a hand-cart with a ratcheting lip so I can literally "jack" the amplifier into place and slide it onto the rack position. It's especially nice when I'm rack-mounting - I can jack it into just the right spot, screw it down, drop the lip and pull the cart out. I can't imagine trying to handle those mega-monsters like the Balanced Audio VK-6200 - 220lbs for the six channel version! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JewishAMerPrince Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 ---------------- On 2/13/2005 1:44:18 AM MrMcGoo wrote: Jerry, I am amazed that you have the intestinal fortitude to claim that I misled the newcomer when you have exactly the type of setup that I recommended. Takeing cheap shots at other member's equipment is not exactly the way to behave either. ---------------- The type of equipment I have has nothing to do with your misleading statement in your first post. In case you have forgotten it, I'll quote you exactly: "The problem with 7 channel amplifiers is that they have a difficult time driving all 7 channels simultaneously". This is very misleading because it flat out isn't true of most 7 channel amps, although it may be of many receivers. It takes little or no "intestinal fortitude" to call a spade a spade. As to your calling my expressing my opinion about equipment you happen to own as a "cheap shot" I think you are way off base, unless,of course, it touched a nerve somewhere. If it did, please accept my apologies, no harm intended. IMHO I do believe I have as much right as you do to express my opinions, AND my opinions about your opinions without getting attacked in a very personal way as you did above. From my perspective you seem to want to turn a debate into a cat fight because you can't admit that you oversimplified and overstated your opinion and worded it as if it were fact when you said: The problem with 7 channel amplifiers is that they have a difficult time driving all 7 channels simultaneously. As for me, I have no intention involving myself in a cat fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 Jerry, So most 7 channel amps allegedly have no difficulty driving all 7 channels simultaneously. Take the B&K Reference amps, since we have already discussed Sunfire. The B&K Reference amps essentially use the same power supply for 7 channels as they use for 5. Are you contending that driving 7 channels off of the same power supply works as effectively as driving only 5 channels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 ---------------- On 2/12/2005 11:47:46 PM DeanG wrote: I'm starting to think Russ really hit on a gem with that Carver Pro Z1000. I read a lot, and you can't find a single bad word about the thing. When I consider the reported high sound quality and oodles of power -- in relationship to price -- I think it might be very hard to go wrong with that one. The Z500, with 150 wpc -- is dirt cheap, and IF I were doing an HT setup -- it would be real tempting to buy a Z1000 and two Z500s. This leaves a lot of money left over to dump into a quality processor. Just a thought. ---------------- thanks Dean!!! but the ratings of the ZR500 are 95 watts per side at 8 ohms..... the 150 watt rating is at 4 ohms... http://www.carverpro.com/zrampmodels.html personally....my long range plan is to buy another ZR1000 for my surrounds (225 watts per channel @ 8 ohms) and one ZR500 for my center channel and run it in bridge mode (300 watts at 8 ohms).... and i agree with Dean - you really can't find any negative comments about these amps..... and i do know that they work GREAT with klipsch speakers!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 Russ, How is Carver Pro doing in makeing multi-channel amps for the home market? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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